Source: N-TV, Berlin, in German 1530 gmt 7 Sep 95

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[6] Excerpt from report by German N-TV; interview conducted in English

... Reporter Welcome, Your Holiness, Dalai Lama, and thank you for giving us the opportunity to conduct this talk. Since 1951 some 1.2 million Tibetans have lost their lives. Human rights organizations believe that 1993 was the worst year for Tibet, which saw around 500 arrests, including monks and nuns who have been languishing in prison ever since. What do you believe is the most important task needed now?

Dalai Lama I am quite convinced that the situation is going to change, for the Tibetan faith is still very strong in the country. And I believe it is very important to strengthen this faith still further. I am quite sure that there is hope. Naturally we can explain to the outside world the Tibetan situation and try to get help and support.

I consider my main task to be to force the Chinese government from outside to come to the negotiating table. This has been my position for the past 16 years, namely to negotiate, to seek a dialogue. I believe that we will succeed in finding common agreements. These days, my main effort is appealing to the international community, to bring the Chinese government to the negotiating table. My proposals do not deal with the issue of independence. My most important concern is the preservation of Tibetan culture and Tibetan fundamental rights .

So therefore usually I call my approach is middle of approach. So actually many Chinese, not only outside but even inside China - you know the intellectuals, some writers - they appreciate my proposal or my stand, so therefore I feel if we make effort for negotiation I am quite confident. We will find a mutually agreeable solution. So this is my appeal to the international community.

Q You said you're quite optimistic that there will be a solution but the negotiations with China go now for 36 years concerning the autonomous status of the region and Beijing during all this year didn' t do anything except or, even Tibet. There are places and towns where for example two-thirds of theing to population is Chinese and only one-third is the original population left. Does that not mean that in about 10 years Tibet is automatically a Chinese place?

A Hmm, yes. Now the present situation, if it remains another 10-15 years without any change, then things will be really hopeless or really difficult or too late. So that's why I'm saying if you look at the present situation things are really serious and time is running out. But my main feeling is the change in China proper - more open, more flexible, more reasonable attitude - I think not only the interest for Tibet but also the interest for China as a whole. This present is too much narrow and rigid thinking is not helpful. I feel eventually things will certainly change. In the meantime it is the international community's responsibility to help positive change, it's important. So you see, the immediate future I am quite pessimistic and I have not much hope. But for long run I have full optimism.

Q For outsiders it's very often impressing if they see violence going on in Tibet and listening to you praying that there must not be, by no means, violence as answer. Do you think there could be a point of time where that changes, where the people down there say this is enough violence, this is enough cruelty, now we are heading back?

A Yes, some people inside and outside, they feel, unfortunately, the otherside only knows violence. But I feel firstly, violence is essentially against human nature. And then also through violence you may achieve something. You may get some temporary satisfaction. But it often creates another problem. Some kind of side-effect is very bad. And then in our own case, in order to live happily, or in order to live peacefully with Chinese for long run in the spirit of good-neighbourhood, I feel at this moment we must strictly follow non-violent so that in the long future we could remain peacefully, friendly, therefore harmoniously. So therefore I really feel non-violence method is the best method. And also I feel because of my way of approach, middle of approach, based on strictly non-violence, because of this way of approach, I feel more and more support or genuine concern from Chinese people or Chinese public - mainly among the intelligence or writers, thinkers - not only outside but inside China.

Q A very important development is also the support or the help of other, especially Western, countries. But in that case it's very often that if you meet politicians here in Germany or wherever, the people say OK, you do a very important mission, we help you with your mission, but if it really comes to the point that counts, very often there's this strict, close economic connection between China and Germany or the US or whatever, which makes it hard. Last year you were so polite and did not come to Frankfurt because of the Chinese critics of that visit. First of all, how serious do you take Western politicians, people and aid in that case when they only talk but don' t act, and the second question would be is there anything they can do?

A I feel in recent years the sympathy and concern from the public and from media. I think quite, quite strong, inside the Tibet issue, now is more than forty years now old, and also geographically is quite removed from the West and I think most important is the Tibetan have no, what you call, "black money", or what you say, oil. So inside that, I feel public sympathy and concern is growing. As a result among the Western countries and also some other Eastern countries, like Japan, among the parliament members, there is a quite strong expression of support, the spirit of solidarity is growing. And also the many Western governments are openly or publicly - as well as behind the scenes - they are taking seriously at least the human rights issue and also the culture. So from time to time they are urging the Chinese government and also the men in government is urging the Chinese government to start negotiations with us. So I feel this is a quite hopeful development.

Q Some economics say if we help China to develop economically, this would also help develop China politically, would also help to make it more open. Would you agree with that?

A Yes. Basically I agree that. Naturally, today's China compared with 15-20 years ago, now today is much open. The pressure from the public side is I think immense. No more, no longer Tiananmen events, demonstrations, this kind of thing does not happen, but, you see, public pressure I think is so strong so comparatively things are more open. But it is still, I feel, so more economic development, more interaction with outside world definitely makes impact, more democratic or more open society. But at the same time I do feel we should pay attention.

I usually categorize three sort of groups; the top Chinese leadership and then Chinese intellectuals - writers and this kind of people - and the Chinese masses. Now the top leadership, now their main concern is stability, not due to satisfaction but by force. Then the second group, their main concern is democracy and more openness, more freedom. Then the third, the Chinese people, their main concern is their daily life. So if the outside world's attitude gives some kind of wrong signal to the second category of the Chinese people, who are really making effort for democracy, freedom, these things, so if they get the wrong signal that the outside world no longer takes care about their interests, and if they demoralize, or their enthusiasm breaks down or goes down, that is very serious, that will have very serious implications.

China, as we already said, is most important nation, therefore that important nation more open, more democratic way, not only is it a benefit for outside world but also 1.2 billion people get the benefit . So therefore you should pay more attention to the enthusiasm or the will of this category of people of China.

Q For the end of this interview I would like to pose you two personal questions. All over the world, not only in Asia, only a few hundred kilometres from here there's war in Yugoslavia. There are a lot more violent places in the world. A lot of people think what we can do against this, like your participating in the Peace University here in Berlin. From where do you get the strength to pray in a world which is full of violence, to pray for freedom and non-violence. Where do you get the strength from?

A Firstly I want to make clear, the present world I do not consider is full of violence. Of course there is violence in many places, but at the same time I think we should realize the portion of people who participate, who are involved in violence, I think out of 5.7 billion human beings, I think the small minority is involved. So the majority are still outside the involvement of this violence. And basically the human nature, I believe, more gentleness, more compassionate. So therefore if human beings have a more aggressive nature, full of violence, then today we may not have concern about the population. So therefore I think act of compassion, act of kindness is also very active among humanity.

Now here I feel we should have some kind of programme for peace, two ways. One, immediate way or method to solve present problems. Meantime, we should have long-run programme for world peace. Now for immediate, like Bosnia, I feel, now, today, it's a little bit too late. The present situation, I feel, concerns the people's mental state. Their emotion has reached such as state they are out of control, so there's no room to think the proper reasons or logics. So therefore it's very very difficult to handle this kind of situation except, I think, to try to pull down the situation, through ceasefire or something, then meaningful negotiation. The bombing, the violence, counter-violence, this is endless.

So at present it's too late, but meantime we should learn from this event. In the long future we must tackle properly, effectively the causes of this violence, so among humanity - divisions, differences of opinion, different customs, different religions, different culture - it's there. But we will find a way to avoid open conflict due to these divisions. Keep their individual identity, meantime we can build a common sense of universal responsibility. We are sharing this small planet. So therefore we can change the human attitude and you see I do feel the today's world situation is such that national boundaries are out of date. We have to think on a global scale. There is only one world, one humanity. My interests are dependent on those of other people. To achieve a happy future for one's own community you have to take account of the interest of other people. This is the situation today. We have to achieve through media, through education, also the message from various different religious traditions, we ha

ve to make proper plan for peace and long future. That I feel is extremely important. And institutions like the Peace University for example can make some contribution regarding long-term world peace..