Interview with Michael To Zhfu, President of the Federationa for a Democratic China - International President
by Paolo Pietrosanti
P. This is Radio Radicale. We have the honour today to be connected with Zhfu, or rather Michael which is an easier name for me and may be for the listeners. Michael now lives in Canada and is the president of the Federation for a Democratic China. First of all, Michael, we would like to have some general news and some information from you on this organization which is one of the biggest within the Chinese democratic opposition.
M. Thank you Paolo. Federation for a Democratic China was created
after the Tiananmen crackdown in 1989, after which all the prominent dissidents escaped China and became exiles in the Western world. These are the people I work with and have exchanges. The Federation was created for a long term struggle to bring democracy in China, and currently it has chapters spread over many European countries such as France, Germany, Britain, Denmark, Sweden, Italy and Spain, and also over in North America, both in Canada and the US, as well as in Japan and Australia. It is a truly international organization, and we are carrying on this work to bring democracy in China and support to the Chinese dissidents. We have been providing this kind of assistance for about seven years, since 1989.
P. Michael, you said that yours is a "long term battle". Why did you define your struggle this way? What do you foresee?
M. Of course, you know we would like to see the Chinese political system change as soon as possible, however, we cannot underestimate our enemy, in this case the Chinese Communist Party. In fact, it is a formidable organization with 57 million memberships, and a standing army of three million people, so our task is really huge because the democratization of China is not purely a matter of changing the Government but also of bringing the level of education changing especially institutions. So we are not underestimating the task, which is a long term one since it will take us even 30-40 or 50 years of endeavours to overhaul the Chinese institutions.
P. What kind of work do you do? I mean, do you have any links with other organizations, with Parliaments. With whom do you work with?
M. We have people connected to the US Congress, and our chapter in Los Angeles and Washington is responsible for lobbying the US Congress. I myself live in Ottawa, the Capital of Canada, and my chapter here is also responsible for lobbying the Canadian Parliament. The same goes on in England and especially with the German Parliament. Every local chapter is in charge of lobbying the local Western countries. Also our Japanese chapter is very effective with the Japanese Parliament.
P. The big contradiction we see - and by we I mean the people who are concretely engaged in the fight for democracy in China - is that of a big country which is very strong in imposing its conditions to the Western democratic countries because of the market. How do you see this contradiction given the recent visits payed by Helmut Kohl and other Heads of State to China? And what are your hopes?
M. On the surface of course it looks as if it were a daunting task in the sense that the Western countries, and in particular the business factories, are really interested in China because of its huge market and opportunities. And to this purpose some politicians are willing to pay lip service to the human rights issue. But we are not discouraged by that because the economic dealing between China and the West inevitably opens up both the market and the people's eyes on the differences of their life-style as compared to what the rest of the world is enjoying. So if they have the chance to take a long look at this, someone might like capitalism and the Western life. You see, I think it's like the AIDS virus, once you got it you will never get rid of it. Therefore, in the long term, the Chinese system, the society, and the people will gravitate towards the Western way of thinking. So, even though temporarily we are facing a difficult task, in the long term, that is in five-ten years, some critical change of opi
nion will happen and people will start claiming their right to better living standards.
P. Michael, what about Wei Jingsheng. When you say that it is realistically a long term battle, on the other hand we have people in jail there. What should we - people living in the Western countries, or out of China anyway - do starting from Wei Jingsheng?
M. People like ourselves, which are out of China, can help by continuously putting pressure on the Chinese Government against the imprisonment of our dissident friends. The reason is that we already know from experience that when there is foreign pressure, prisoners usually get better treatments. Now we are confident that Wei Jingsheng is not going to stay there for the next 14 years. We believe that the Chinese system will come to major changes in the next three to five years because the system is already not capable of handling the changes that economic development is bringing about. So they are in great difficulties. Another corroborating sign is their being so harsh on Wong Den(??). This is a sure sign that there is a lot of internal struggle going on, so we hope that Wei and Wong Den(??), and the other political prisoners, will not last in jail for the next three or five years. And we must do our job in the West. By continuously putting pressure on the Chinese Government I'm hopeful that something will
change.
P. What do you think it can happen there? Which changes can occur, and at what level is the fight inside the establishment in China?
M. I'm glad you asked that question. When you think about the Wang Dan case, you can clearly see the intensity of the internal fight. Because, if one individual is accused of trying to overthrow a Government which has three million standing army plus a huge number of security police, something wrong must be going on. How can one person with no organization try to overthrow a Government like this? Therefore, this must be a sign that they do not want any disturbances because their hands are full of internal struggle. You know that next year, next July, Hong Kong will revert back to China and that Deng Xiao Ping probably is already no longer able to function. Therefore, this succession plus the Hong Kong case represent critical events which can trigger unpredictable results. These are the reasons why they want to make the population know that they will not tolerate any popular movement and that they will show it in very severe manners, against any sign of change. This is a sign of their being very insecure abou
t themselves.
P. Michael, you spoke about unpredictable results. Can you try to predict some results or some dynamics?
M. If you observe what has happened in China in the last 47 years since the communists came to power, you realize that the major upheavals were actually not triggered by the population but by internal strife. That means that there is internal fight at the highest levels of power. The only thing that the peasants have been able to do is to force the Government to abolish the Chinese commune system because the peasants were dying of starvation. So I believe the forces are coming from two sides, one is the succession to Deng Xiao Ping, which will cause intense power struggles and intense fight. The other one is the massive migration of workers coming out from the rural areas, peasants looking for opportunities and ways to make a living. And this massive migration of workers is a major destability factor in the Chinese society. So, any spark may trigger an unpredictable result. And, of course, in the Chinese case, it is not purely an internal matter. When these things will happen there will be Chinese forces com
ing from outside, which are the forces from Hong Kong and the forces or influence from Taiwan and also the forces and influence from overseas Chinese like ourselves of the FDC. So many forces will influence the outcome and hopefully will force the Chinese to acknowledge that the modern world requires a modern State organization and that their way of organizing the State is not suitable for the XXI century.
P. Michael, let's talk about Wei Jingsheng. He is probably the best known dissident in prison in China. He was awarded the Sacharov Prize by the European Parliament just a few days ago, how important is he and how far is he known in China?
M. You are aware that the Chinese Government has a total monopoly on the media in the country. All publications, all newspapers, all radio and tv broadcasts are monopolized by them. So, as a result, the Chinese population basically lacks any historical memory. Let me give you one example: today's students do not know who the Tiananmen heroes of 1989 are, likewise, during the 1989 events, the student leaders in Tiananmen square didn't know who the democratic heroes back in 1978 were. They do not have memory because history is monopolized by the Government. So it is true that the vast majority of the Chinese population do not know who Wei Jingsheng is, but he is very well known among the overseas Chinese, he is well known in Hong Kong, in Taiwan and among the whole dissidents circle. He is very much respected because of his pursuit and this respect will be increased also by the Sacharov Prize. In fact, this is going to be very important because now the Chinese Government must realize that Wei Jingsheng is an i
nternational figure at the level of Aun San Suchi and is now approaching that of Mandela. If next year he will get the Nobel Prize, and will thus become an even more international figure, the Chinese will have to be very careful how they treat him.
P. As far as the Nobel Prize is concerned, both your organization and ours are working to collect declarations in support of Wei Jingsheng's nomination. How is this job going on there?
M. I am personally involved in this campaign and I think the Transnational Radical Party are collaborating very much with us as well as with the Human Rights in China in New York. Therefore, I have sent this campaign material to the Canadian Parliament as well as to our chapter in the US to the purpose of furthering the campaign within the Congress. I have also sent the same campaign material from the Transnational Radical Party to the Taiwan Parliament and to the Hong Kong legislative organization. So we are pushing in every area where we have good connections. I forgot to mention the Australian and the Japanese Parliaments, of course. However, hopefully we will build up an international wide and strong support for Way this year so that he can be successfully nominated for the 1997 Nobel Peace Prize.
P. As you probably know, in these very days we have collected the first signatures of Italian MPs in support of Wei's nomination. However, since we are sure that we are being systematically monitorized by the Chinese Embassy in Rome, would you like to send a message to the Chinese listeners in the Embassy and also to Bejing through the transcriptors of these words.
M. Yes, I appreciate this opportunity very much. Thank you very much Paolo. This is what I would like to say to them. The Chinese Government have a great opportunity in front of them. When Deng Xiao Ping will pass away in the next few months, the new Chinese Government, whoever is coming in charge of the situation, will be faced with a historical opportunity. Let's say that if it is someone like Jang Zemin, who was never directly involved in the Tiananmen massacre, he will have the chance to take two very small and yet very very significant steps from a historical point of view. I would like to call on them to change the Chinese political environment as such. Number one suggestion is to basically revoke all the charges against the Tiananmen dissidents, allow them to go home without harm. This simple small step, or gesture, will instantly allow the Chinese population to hope that the new Government is moderate and progressive in thinking. Any change in the political environment could be very significant.
Suggestion number two is to seriously consider the opportunity to make a small move towards Hong Kong, that is to allow the Hong Kong current legislative members to continue after 1997. This again would be a clear signal to both the people in Hong Kong and the people in Taiwan that the new Government is progressive, and is moderate and is willing to consider changes, which is beneficial. And, in the Chinese reality, those two small moves could change the whole environment showing an attitude more conducive to progress. But if they do not, then they can bet that they will live as if they were sitting on top of a volcano, that the population underneath them will be in constant tension and that any spark may trigger a popular uprising. So I would call on them to seriously consider the opportunity to take some steps that could change the Chinese political environment and the political system, so to prepare China enter the XXI century.
P. Michael we thank you very, very much. Let's remain in touch as we are because we are working together.
M. Thank you very much. I appreciate your interview and I thank you for the audience in Italy. It was a pleasure talking to you.
