P.: Here is Paolo Pietrosanti in Radio radicale, we have the honour and the pleasure to be connected by phone to Mr. Alptekin, who is the leader of a people, an Asian people, the Ujgur people, which is a people not so well known, a relatively small people not so known by Europeans in general, by Italians in general, but it is a people closed to be destroyed, one of the people risking their survival in this very moment, and since quite a long time ago. Mr.

Alptekin I would like you to begin a general description of your country and your people.

Alptekin: Thank you very much. First of all I would like to thank you and your radio station for giving me an opportunity to talk about the plight of my people. Uigures, you said, Uiguris are a very ancient people of central Asia. They are related to the Kazakhis, to the Khirgis, Uzbekhs, and an old sort of the Turks in Anatolia, linguistically, historically and culturally. The Uiguris are the grandchildren of the Huns, our forefathers, unfortunately they marched into Europe under the leadership of Attila and stopped right in front of Rome centuries ago, but Uigures are here in peaceful means. They are the indigenous people of the country called Eastern Turkistan, which is known as the Uigure autonomous region, which is at the moment under the Chinese Communist rule since 1949. So the Uigures have a very old history, culture and civilization, as old as the Chinese, and also as old as the Tibetan people. Now the Tibetans share the same destiny with us, or we share the same destiny as the Tibetans, like us und

er the Chinese Communist rule at the moment.

P.: Yes, even if there are cultural and religious differences between these ethnic groups.

Alptekin: Yes, but Uigures were Buddhist before they embraced Islam in the 20th 11th

century. Many aspects of Buddhism went from the Uigures to the Tibetans, but although the great majority of Uigures are Muslims, we almost have half a million Uigures who are Buddhist, and we have a very small comunity of Uigures who are Christians, as you may know Eastern Turkistan was on the centre of the silkroad, which bounded East to the west, and many cultures, ethnic groups and linguistic groups came and settled in Eastern Turkistan, a multicultural country were these peoples lived in peace with one another for centuries until the Chinese Communism occupied it in 1949. As I said at the beginning of my statement, Uigures are a Turkish people, but the Turkish world is about 150 million people, among which we have also the Yakuz, Chuash, the Gagauz, who are Turkish speaking people related to us, but they are Orthodox Christians, and in the Black Sea and in the Baltic states we have the Karaiems, who in the 7th embraced Judaism and the children of the Great Gazar empire in the Caucasus in the West of Cent

ral Asia, and they are also Turkish speaking people, so in the Turkish world the religion plays a secondary role, but a common history, language and civilization comes first.

P.: So the complexity of what you have just evocated is interesting and important to know to pass on a further step I would say, that is the current situation of your country.

Alptekin: Yes, unfortunately after the occupation of Eastern Turkistan in 1949 by the Chinese Communists, they followed a very oppressive policy, the political oppression. For instance, they set an autonomous region, called Hsinchiang Uigure autonomous region, but there is no genuine subrule, 90% of the important posts in my homeland is occupied by the Chinese Communists. The local people have nothing to say, they have no power whatsoever, and before 1949 we had 300.000 Chinese settlers, now we have more than 6 millions according to official statistics, but my coutrymen believe that this population has almost reached 15 million. Now my countrymen are under great fear that if this Chinese population transfer continues in the near future they might be assimilated among a huge culture in their own country, that's one problem, and then the Chinese are forcing birthcontrol among my people, so although the Uigures are 8 million and there's enough land for our people to live and enough food to feed this people, unf

ortunately China is using birthcontrol against my people, but they are bringing more Chinese in and on the other hand who can have only one child in main land China, but if they go to my homeland and settle there, they are allowed to have two or three children. This is what we call deliberate cultural genocide against my people. About the literary language: the Uigures since the 5th century had their written languages and it is well known to many Central Asia scholars, who have studied that area, that Uigures have a very rich cultural and literary heritage, but unfortunately Chinese are systematically now trying to assimilate and chinesize the Uigure language at the moment; then, you see, we have the economy, Eastern Turkistan is a very rich area with natural resources, for instance we have 20 billion tons of oil reserves, 30 billion cubic metres of natural gas, we have gold, we have uranium we have everything, but my people lives in poverty at home, in substance level 45 to 50 dollars per person annually, w

hich is even under the poverty line accepted by the UN, and in many parts, especially in the Southern parts of my country, there are famine going on, people are starving to death. I visited my country a couple of times, I met my relatives wearing trousers and jackets that were twenty years old, they were hanging all around, I could not hold tears back when I saw them in that situation, and I vehemently complained against the Chinese who came to liberate us, we don't know from what they liberated us, but we wanted to liberate also from the Chinese rule of these years. Now, people may think where is Eastern Turkistan? Eastern Turkistan is in the heart of Asia, it neighbors with Tibet. If somebody would look into the map of Tibet and look about in the Northwest of Tibet, they would see Chingian or Eastern Turkistan, it is bordered with the Central Asian republics of Kazakistan, Kirgisistan and Tagikistan, and to the North you'd see the Outer Mongolia. Now, talking about unemployment, the new Chinese come and ge

t all the jobs. I made researches, I have a 25 year experience in an American radio station as a journalist, as a senior policy advisor, senior research analyst. I have documents which could prove from neutral sources that 90% of my people at home are jobless, unemployed at the moment, the Chinese who emigrated to Eastern Turkistan have jobs, while our people, if they want, don't. When I visited there I saw young people with a higher educational diploma in their pockets sitting in the street playing cards. I said "What are you guys doing here? Why don't you work?" They said "There's no job for us, they don't give us any job." All jobs are taken away by the Chinese unfortunately. So, all this, and then the healthcare is nonexistent, if you go to hospitals, you don't see doctors around there, most doctors are Chinese, there are very few doctors who are Uigures. Now, if a patient comes, first he has difficulties to find a doctor, the doctors work privately somewhere else, and the poor people have no money to go

to a private doctor; and medicines, there are no medicines, you cannot imagine the situation of hospitals there at the moment. Eastern Turkistan people were known for long livety, we had life expentancy of 65 years, now their life expectancy is 45 years, 50 years, and infant mortality rate in Eastern Turkistan is 200 per 1000, 70% of all illnesses in hospital are fatal, they are bound to die because there is no proper medical treatment. Eastern Turkistan is the centre for Chinese nuclear tests, although they have signed the treaty for nonproliferation, that's one thing, the other thing is not to test atomic weapons, but there were 46 atomic tests in Eastern Turkistan, the radio fallout has not only damaged human life there, but also polluted food, animals, drinking water, everything. In the capital of Eastern Turkistan, Uruchi, there is a people's hospital in which the 1993 registry says that the rate of fatal cancer cases were only a few per year in the 1960s, and tens of cases per month in the 1970s. Now

reports of cancer in the same hospital number at least 70% per day out of 150.000 daily sick people. So patients come to hospitals and 70% out of 150.000 is ill with various cancer disease. These people were never ill with cancer in our country before 1960. Of course, every nation has a belief, the great majority of Uigures are Muslims, as I said we have Buddhists, we have Christians, but this is not a problem only to that area, that of Eastern Turkistan, or Chingian Autonomous Region, in whole China the measures against beliefs were horrible; against Islam, Christians, you know the situation of Buddhists, how they are suffering in Tibet, we know the Chinese Muslims and Catholics are under the same conditions. There is no religious schools, there are schools, but they are run by the State; more than religion, you read and study Marxism, Maosim and Leninism. There are no religious people to educate people, the Government has itself raised or educated some clerks, but after 1993 about 25.000 have been discharg

ed because they were disloyal to the Communist lines, what that means, nobody knows. At the moment we have 8 million Muslims, and China says after 1980 about 13.000 mosques were built, but what they call mosque is what we call like a small chapel, not a church but a chapel. So it doesn't meet the needs of the people, and new mosques are not allowed to be built in that country, and those which have been restored or built recently have been forbidden by the Chinese authorities in that country. All this policy of oppression and cultural assimilation and economic exploitation, ecological destruction, have turned my country into a timebomb. Now, you might have heard about the revolts in that country, since 1990 uprisings and bombing have been reported to me to have taken place in many parts of Eastern Turkistan. We have been telling the Chinese government that the tension was rising, it must be defused, and to defuse tension the first step is dialogue. Why don't you start dialogue with our people at home instead

of banning them, punishing them and sentencing them to prison, it is for your interest and for the interest of our people, otherwise the people face two choices: one option is that, because of cultural assimilation, they will disappear from the historical scene, or they will stand up and say "Look, instead of dying like a coward, I want to die like a hero," and that is the point our countrymen had reached. We try to talk to the Chinese, but each time they refused to talk to us, to our people at home. So, instead of talking they are applying for rootless measures to silence the demands, grievances and desires of our people. So at this stage we don't know what to do, they refuse to talk to his Holiness the Dalai Lama, they refuse to talk to our people, and in many parts of China, like Uiso, huna, recently Peking, uang don, fujian. Tens of thousands of Chinese who are unhappy with the President regime are revolting and fighting with regular armies all over the world, so not my homeland, not Tibet, not Inner Mon

golia, the situation is worse in Inner Mongolia, and in mainland China. So, unless the Chinese leadership sits and finds a way to defuse these tensions, China can come to a huge explosion; experts believe that if the Chinese leadership does not take serious steps to defuse the tension, China could end up in a bloody way like Jugoslavia. So, this is our situation, Sir.

P. Pietrosanti: You have used and expression we also use when we talk about Tibet: genocide through dilution. Let us understand, which is the reason why Peking wants to wipe out the Chinese territory, the territory of the People's Republic of China, kicking away all those people as you are.

Alptekin: They use every opportunity, if we protest they arrest us, and they torture us, they send us to hardlabour camps, or they execute us: this is one policy going on. The other system is, without using any force, through education, though population transfer, in the long run they Chinesize us. If you are Chinesized, that's a genocide, if a systematic policy, without killing you, assimilates you, that is a genocide.20

P. Pietrosanti: We really would like to understand better one point. Which is the interest of the Central Government of China for doing that?

Alptekin: The interest is that as long as there is less people and there will be more assimilated people, there will be less problems for the Chinese. That's one thing. Hundred years before there was a Manchu nation of 40 million people, who occupied China for 300 years, now by occupying China they were conquered by the Chinese culture. This people does not exist anymore, you cannot distinguish the Manchus as a distinct nation anymore, because according to the survey in 1990 or 1989, I can't remember exactly, those who had identified themselves as Manchus were only about 5 million, those who spoke a little bit of Manchu were only 100.000 people out of 40 million, so the Manchu people does not exist anymore. Now the same goes for Inner Mongols, there are 25 million people living in Inner Mongolia, 3,5 million are Mongols, only 1 million have admitted they speak Mongolian after 45 years or 50 years of Chinese Communist rule. Can you imagine the assimilation, we have been dealing with China for almost 2000 year

s the Uigures. 2000 years before the Chinese were within the Great Walls. Outside the Great Walls there were other several nations, which could be historically identified, but these nations do not exist anymore. China is 2000 kilometres out of their borders since the last 2000 years, and all these nations in the surrounding areas are all assimilated by the Chinese culture, they don't exist anymore. Now Mongols and Uigures and Tibetans loose thier culture, tradition and most importantly their language, they are loosing thier identity as a Uigure. Some scholars say that the Uigure culture will continue to exist even though they loose their language, but what makes me Uigure is my language, and my culture and tradition. This is the problem.

P. Pietrosanti: Sure, well as the Transnational Radical Party we are engaged in the case of Eastern Turkistan and together with the case of other peoples close to be destroyed, close to suffer a genocide. They are in same big Asian area. What do you advise us to do, how should we go on on this field?

Alptekin: First of all, I would like to thank the Radical Party for the engagement, the help, assistance, support for people like us. The best thing would be to convince the Chinese leadership that the policy they are following against us is wrong. We could all live in peace by starting a dialogue that each nation in that respect has been asking for, a special "one system two countries", and the Chinese scholars, the ones of the academy of Science in Peking, released a report in 1992 for the Chinese leadership. In that report they said: if the Chinese leadership does not take immediate steps to find a way to develop a federal system in China like in the US, this country could run into troubles like Jugoslavia. This report was released also by the Agence France Press for the world. That is one solution, the final aim of people like us is to live their independence from slavery, but we are trying to save lives, independence is not given but taken, to take that you have to make sacrifices, but our people does k

now that we cannot take that risk. We would like to achieve those goals in a nonviolent, peaceful dialogue methods. That was in a suggestion of the Chinese scholars to the Chinese Government, and it would offer temporary solutions, but they don't even want to consider that. So I don't know, I am in the same situation as you, we have been offering the Chinese so many things, dialogue, genuine authonomy, turned from established authonomy, just to defuse tension, the rest could be discussed later on. They don't even do that.

P. Pietrosanti: The federal assessment is fascinating and stimulating, it could even be exported from the Walls of China to all over the world. What do you think about what is going on now, currently in China? Something is going to change probably, how do you see this process?

Alptekin: Well, I think something will be changed, something has to change and will change, as we all know the oldest empire, one of the great empires, the Roman empire, last for 1000 years, and it had to go down some day, also the Ottoman empire went down after 635 years, we saw the Soviet empire last 70 years. The Chinese empire has last for too long. China doesn't mean that the Chinese will disapear, it will always be there. But the present system will not continue. Why? Because 55 million Communists are ruling more than 1 billion people against their will, and 100 millions of Chinese are against this rE9gime in that country. They want to set up a democratic system. This present leadership is running the country through the Chinese with the support of the army, of its security and of the armed police by cracking down and by deterring people. That will not last. The shah of Iran was a powerful man in that country, he had bought 10 billion dollars of armaments from various countries, but it fell apart. Chin

a will not and cannot survive under this situation, so it has to renew itself. If they want to renew themselves they have to be more pragmatic, to be more flexible, ready for dialogue with all Chinese and nonChinese peoples at the same time. Otherwise, how long will the Chinese themselves and the army, the security and the armed police continue to support 55 million Chinese Communists, that is questionable. Among the 55 million Chinese Communist leaders or members there is also no unity, there are also people in the party who disagree with the present leadership, and also who would favour the political liberalization of that country, and more rigths to the nonChinese people, more liberties to its own people. But certain groups fear they would loose power, and so they are hanging on to it, but for how long? We don't know. If 1115 before somebody would have told me the Soviet Union would collapse, I wouldn't have believed it, and there is no guarantee the Chinese system will fall apart soon, but the thing is m

any Western countries are supporting this 55 million Communists, and if they do continue to do that, what will the 1 billion people think of the Western countries in the near future? They could even think that the Western countries were supporters of their oppressors. How would that look like? The countries which are supporting the Chinese should really sit down and think about that for the future also and about the investments in those countries.

P. Pietrosanti: How do you look at the role of the international bodies and institutions, you know that a few weeks ago for the first time the European Parliament, of course thanks to those engaged in the Radical Party, we were able to get a resolution speaking clearly about Turkistan.

Alptekin: I would like to really congratulate the initiative of the Radical Party and my dear friend Karl von Habsburg and Olivier, they championed and I was invited there, and I talked to several parliamentarians there, I had several interviews with them. I am very thankful that these kinds of messages are very important, and I wish that the UN Human Rights Commission could have done the same thing. You have to send strong messages. We have a nice saying: "True friends talk bitter." If they feel that China is a true friend of theirs, they should be able talk bitterly to the Chinese leadership, to tell them what is wrong and what is correct, and what they have to correct in their country. The resolution of the European Parliament and the many other supporters of our causes are doing something by reminding China that they cannot get away with political oppression, cultural assimilation or economic exploitation, and ecological destruction carried out against the citizens of that country. This is a very importa

nt matter. When we talk about human rights and when we talk about the universality of the human rights, then it can never be according to the international law, and it can never be only internal affairs of China. So the international community must do something, in one point the international community did something against the apartheid SouthAfrican Government, they did not think of a violation of individual human rights, they moved collectively to protect collective human rights that were abused in that country. If the West could send that message once to China collectively. China is a prison, a concentration camp. People should send a message to protect rights in China as a whole, but they are hesitating to do that, they are more businessoriented, but in the long run what kind of profit might that bring? I don't know really.

P. Pietrosanti: Yes, probably the problem is that Western governments do not think in long terms. They are confirmed every 4 or 5 years. That's why I was underlining the role of international institutions. Do you think it would be possible to do something to force again in the UN system?

Alptekin: Well, I think so, as you have rightly said now, the Governments only think about the shortterm profits: if they continue to do that, I don't know whether anything could be done to pressurize the governments and the UN to take up a resolution against China. What it is creating is a double standard policy: if there a weak country where they don't have any profits, they would immediately pass the resolution to condemn the human rights abuses. But in countries like China they cannot, this is antagonizing many other nations which are in a weaker position than China. This is the double standard policy at the UN at the moment, if it is a big country they cannot, and if it is smaller country they pass the resolution as they wish. I don't think it is possible, they only once did that, but then nothing has been done in that respect. The thing is the governments are there with their citizens' vote. More pressure should come from the people to their Parliaments for the Governments in each countries. If they ca

n do so, that might bring something also. On the other hand there are millions of Chinese people living abroad, the message should also come from the Chinese people. Deng Tziao Ping once said: "The more pressure from abroad is the best proof that we are doing things that are good." If that is the attitude of the Chinese people, then pressure must also come from the Chinese people. Millions of Chinese people live abroad, they could support their countrymen in China as a whole, and this could also bring a lot of pressure to the Chinese Government. They might ignore the pressure from foreign countries, but they might not be able to ignore the pressure coming form their own citizens.

P. Pietrosanti: Do you really think it is a good business to increase in this unmanaged way the trade with China, do you think this is really a good business for the West?

Alptekin: Actually there might be somebody who is profiting from them, if you see the US, I don't know what kind of profit they are making, China has more than 40 billion dollars deficit with the US. China has probably more from the trade than the US. I don't have any statistics for other countries, I have heard from other people how difficult it is to overcome the Chinese beaurocracy for trade because of the corruption in that country. What happens to investments if the Communist rE9gime goes and the Democratic comes, what would the people think of investments and investors in that country? They should really think about that.

P. Pietrosanti: Mr. Alptekin, we are very grateful to you for this long, important and interesting interview and colloque.

Alptekin: Sir, I would like to thank you again for giving me the opportunity to express my views and my ideas, and to bring to your listeners' attention the plight of my people. Thank you very much.

P. Pietrosanti: Thank you, and best wishes not just to you, because it is a matter of all of us.

Alptekin: The struggle, the peaceful struggle will continue. Thank you very much for your kind support.