Radio "Nadezhda" ("Hope"), "2I" program, heading "Actual Interview". Monday, August 15, 1994, 18:30 - 19:00

Journalist Irina Namesnikova.

I. N.: It's 18:30 now, so, it's time for our "Actual Interview". Today it is devoted to the alternative civil service. We have guests in our studio: Angelika Andrejevna Chechina, the representative of Soldiers' Mothers' Committee, and Nikolai Khramov, member of General Council of Radical party, that has its own opinion in the alternative service. At first, let's clear floor for Angelika Andrejevna.

A. CHECHINA: I would like to speak about our Committee's work on the Law on alternative civil service. We've proposed that law to be adopted for a long time. We have developed a draft law in collaboration with Radical party as early as for the Supreme Council. Now we have the draft law that was developed by Committees of State Duma. We would like to state our principles that lie in basis of our amendments of the Law. Here goes the first and the most important one. We consider, that military and civil service as well, must be equal alternatives for a citizen to fulfill his social duty. That is, neither alternative civil service, nor military one should not be considered some sort of punishment. Besides, the 26th article of the Law treats the military service as a penalty. We consider that inadmissible; so, if a draftee, or, to be more precise, a man who passes civil service was found absent there, he should be responsible as a deserter according our Criminal Code. That is, he must be responsible by Law, not t

o be turned to the military service as a penalty for truancy of the alternative one. Military service must not be a punishment. We consider that no state instance or commission, nobody can determine the degree of sincerity of any citizen. That is, the grant of alternative civil service must be 'registrative', not licensed, as it is provided by the draft law.

I. N.: Do you consider a wish of the citizen himself should be enough for that?

A. CHECHINA: Yes. That is a service too. A service can be military or civil. If he can't hold arms, he should wash chamber-pots of feeble or asphalt highways for the others. It should be useful work in a civil department. We would like that Law on alternative civil service to be in force just until the Law on professional army would be adopted. Another Law on alternative service should be adopted then, the Law to provide alternative service during war-time or during state of emergency.

CALL THE STUDIO (Ilja): Do you agree that before the usual service will function normally, it's actually useless to start your service, because it will bear an enormous rush. You just have to stand for usual service, then your variant could function. It's useless anyway.

A. CHECHINA: We have worked with draft laws on professional contract army for a long time, as early as with Jazov. A small mobile army. Professionals. Now we are still working with that. Documents were submitted to State Duma, and so on. So, we would naturally like the military service to be more attractive for young men then an alternative civil one. Such conditions can be created. We have proposals on social security of military men, on creation of such an air in the society and in the army to make exactly the military service to be more attractive, to give it more priority, significance, authority in the society, then an alternative civil service. And indeed, only a man, whose conscience or convictions prevent him of holding weapons, will pass it. We stand for that already for five years.

N. KHRAMOV: I would like to speak in few words about the history of the question. Russia is the only country now of all ex-USSR, where there is no Law on alternative civil service up to now; the only country, where the only alternative for men, whose conscience prevents them of holding arms, is prison. Such laws -- more or less good -- were adopted in Ukraine, in all Baltic republics, in Moldova, in all other ex-Soviet republics. Russia is still an exception. You were perfect in the beginning of our broadcast, saying that Radical party has its opinion, but I would like to correct you slightly if you please. That is not simply an opinion, but the principal history of Radical party, that was founded in 50-ties in Italy and was an Italian organization before last ten years, when it has become a transnational, an international organization. It was one of our most important campaigns -- a battle for acknowledgment of right to refuse military service by conscience. Radical party has won that battle in 70-ties in I

taly. The democratic Law on right to refuse military service and on alternative civil service was adopted there. It's quite natural, that our first steps in the Soviet Union of that time dealt with the problem. Collaborating with Soldiers' Mothers' Committee and some other organizations, we have developed a draft law on alternative civil service in 1991...

I. N.: That is, you have such a systematic, all-round approach?

N. KHRAMOV: Yes. Besides, I guess I have my own position interfered in the question, because I have refused to serve in military forces by conviction, in Soviet military forces... However, the draft law was developed and submitted to Supreme Council of Russian Federation, but its consideration was postponed and was finally buried alone with the Supreme Council itself during October events.

CALL THE STUDIO (Andrei Petrovich Dulin, MF major): What is the basis of the alternative service and contract service?

N. KHRAMOV: What do we mean, and what does the whole world mean, when they speak about alternative civil service? In those countries, where the total peace-time military duty is in force (or even in those, where there is no such duty, like USA, where the volunteer contract army is the variant in force), the legislatively developed system of means provides men, whose convictions prevent them of holding weapons, a right to avoid draft and to fulfill their social duty in another way without getting armed. Of course, I agree with Angelika Andrejevna. That should be useful work: that is included in our draft law. That draft law was developed by two Committees of State Duma (the Committee on questions of social unions and religious organizations and the Committee on defense) on July 7, 1994, and will be discussed in Autumn. The mentioned principle was included there, but we have developed a number of amendments ("we" -- I mean, Soldiers' Mothers' Committee and Radical party). So, we intend to stand for those amend

ments to be considered by Committees and were taken under account at the plenary sitting of State Duma during discussion and adoption of the draft law. I would like to express an important point, a very important point for us. Alternative civil service is some sort of labor duty. However, never should men who have chosen the alternative civil service, absolutely by free will and enjoying equal rights, as we insist to be (that is, they should have a possibility simply to mark the appropriate bullet in the summons: the military service or the civil service) -- never should men pass any commission that will determine degree of their convictions.

I. N.: Frankly speaking, It's hard to imagine such a commission at all...

N. KHRAMOV: Yes, it's hard; nevertheless, the commission is the most important element of the draft law developed by Duma. That is, a sitting of several uncles, or maybe aunts, who will determine degree of your convictions and will tell you...

I. N.: With a lie detector, eh?

N. KHRAMOV: I don't know, maybe, they will request you to quote such-and-such a page by Leo Tolstoi...

A. CHECHINA: I would like to say, that the draft law developed by State Duma implies that the determination of sincerity of convictions is to be the duty of military committees, that are established to draft more men to the military service. So, we cannot speak of objectivity of such a distribution of draftees under such a law. We object to it categorically. May be, that should be really a commission that determines a list of civil works the alternative service draftees are directed to.

N. KHRAMOV: Few words to conclude. I feel, I didn't answer the question what should the alternative service be. I would like to conclude my reflections. That should not be a reservoir of cheap working mass, relatively denied of civil rights. The alternative civil service, we consider, should be a service directed to the good of peace. That is, for instance... UN has made a proposal now to form so called democratic corpses. Those are groups of volunteers, including men who have refused the military service, from different countries, including potential enemies, that should be directed to Ruanda or something like that, to hot spots or ex-hot spots, to provide humane help, to observe the process of building democracy and elections, like in Cambodja, for example. The field of activity for men who refused the military service is very broad...

I. N.: Yes, at such an alternative service there'll be no picnic, that is too true.

N. KHRAMOV: It's obvious; nevertheless, it's a very important point, somebody must do it, so, men, who refuse military service not to work on behalf of war, are exactly those men who should do such a work at first place.

I. N.: To work on behalf of peace.

CALL THE STUDIO (Nina Petrovna): Good evening. I would like to ask the young man a question. What is that social duty he meant and what did he mean by "society"? I'm a mother. I have a son to be drafted to the army. What's the duty? Who needs it? What is the society he meant? Who needs my son? Why is he obliged to join army? Why must he die? Why must he perish?

H. KHRAMOV: Nina Petrova and others who listens to us! I won't be understood wrongly at all, like if I've summoned men to join army. Just the other way round! But when I've spoken about the social duty, I meant the common notion. So, when people unite in some society, some state -- I tell you frankly, I'm not an anarchist -- in any state, called Russian Federation, or United States of America, of Federal Republic of Germany, or the other one, in any state people should fulfill the duties, mentioned, for example, in "Social Treaty" by Russot. We have a deal, that we do not kill each other on the streets, we pay taxes, that finance militia, or police, or the army that defends us. The proposal of Radical party, that I fully agree with, is that there should be the united UN army, or the global army. Neither America, nor China, nor Russia, nor Iraq, nor Kuwait should have any, but the international army...

I. N.: What an interesting point of view... But that is the other question.

N. KHRAMOV: Yes, that is another question, but I just would like to say. In accordance with amendments, that we insist on, namely, the equality of alternative civil service and the military one, only those men who will choose the military service of two equal alternatives, the civil and the military, should join the army.

I. N.: We have another call.

CALL THE STUDIO: Good evening. Here is the question. There are people who are exceptionally civic by their vocation, let's speak of them, non-military by their mentality. What real mechanisms are in force nowadays to help young men to choose the real way, but not the army?

A. CHECHINA: We have no such possibilities now. We have the law on military duty, that provides all young men with satisfactory health the obligation to serve in army. Even if he is exceptionally civic... that's why we have non-formal relations in army, we have shootings on Perfiliev islands, and so on. Exactly because everybody is drafted. Psychologically incompatible men find themselves in one barracks. That's why, of course, it's hard to bear two years of that. That's why we develop the alternative civil service.

I. N.: We must explain, that it's a draft law, it is not in force yet.

A. CHECHINA: Yes, that is a draft law. We are trying to make it better so, that the civil service should not seem like a punishment in principle, it should not be a penalty, and should be hard enough for young men...

I. N.: Hard, but necessary.

A. CHECHINA: ...and necessary for our society and state. Now, before the draft law adopted, we have no possibility to avoid military service. So, if health allows... There are some delays for students, lone fathers, pensioners, and so on; some categories of citizens can avoid military service, but those are of limited number.

CALL THE STUDIO (Julia Pavlovna): A question to Angelika Andrejevna. Angelika Andrejevna, first of all, thank you a lot for your activity in the Soldiers' Mothers' Committee. What measures would you take if Duma will decline your principal amendments? As we know, Duma expresses interests of the minority. How can we, habitants of the capital and other cities, help you in that activity, maybe, by gathering signatures...

I. N.: At first, thank you for the question, it is very actual, because we've just discussed it during the musical pause: how can the community help Radical party and Committee of Soldiers' Mothers.

A. CHECHINA: Julia Pavlovna, thank you a lot. I would like to announce the telephone number of Radical party -- 9239127 -- to support the campaign for our amendments of the draft law on the alternative service. Besides, we ask everybody to organize actions, and signature gathering, and so on, to support our memorandum that was developed together with Radical party by sending all documents to State Duma: Moscow, Okhotny Riad, 1. Then, we have telephone of our Committee of Soldiers' Mothers and the mail address: 101000, Moscow, Luchnikov side-street, 4. You can mail your support to Committee of Soldiers' Mothers and to Radical party as well.

N. KHRAMOV: I would also like to thank Julia Pavlovna, who called us and put forward the question, because it must be the most important question of all those we would like to hear. The matter is of course not that Duma expresses interests of minority or of majority, that is another question; but naturally it is important, because for any law to be adopted, it is necessary to organize heavy social pressure, a good campaign of social pressure, to this or that democratic amendment we propose was adopted or at least considered. It would be good if they'll hear us. We have developed that memorandum, now just in several copies. Now we are translating it into English, because the whole world is very interested in that sphere of events in our country. Just to say, that the European Parliament, for example, has adopted the special resolution few days ago concerning the situation in Soviet Army, in particular, concerning your field of ideas, Angelika Andrejevna, human rights inside the army. We hope European Parliame

nt will adopt the resolution this Autumn, that will appeal State Duma of Russia to adopt a democratic -- I stress -- a democratic law on alternative civil service. But besides the exterior pressure, it is very important to organize a campaign inside the country, in particular, that'll naturally be telegrams, letters, that would request to adopt a democratic law on alternative civil service. We have taken upon us the work of coordination of that campaign. Now we are preparing the mailing of the memorandum and amendments to deputies of State Duma and to mass media (so, Irina, you will get the press release some time later...) Of course, we would like to organize more or less broad movement before Autumn not only in Moscow, but also in other cities. There should also be demonstrations, maybe we will organize a large demonstration before Duma; there should be petitions under which we will gather signstures. That 's why I would like to ask you, Julia Pavlovna, and all your friends, and everybody who hears us now

and would like to obtain any changes in that question, please, contact us, I mean Radical party and Committee of Soldiers' Mothers, leave your contact addresses or telephone numbers for us to suggest you to gather signatures under petition that we'll develop, maybe, together with you, if you visit us (we are in the center of Moscow). That's why I repeat our contact telephone number for the campaign on alternative service: 9239127.

I. N.: Please tell us, you've begun to speak about your amendments of the draft law. Did you declare all main points, or there is something else that you would like to stress?

N. KHRAMOV: As I've already said, the main point is the absolute equality of alternative civil service and the military one and that no commission should exist to determine degree of sincerity of convictions. That is the first principal point of ours. The second principal point is that it shouldn't be free of cheap working mass, but those people should work on behalf of peace. Another point is also important, that the Law on alternative civil service should be a law of direct force, it should not be appended or changed, or prepared in any way by different department and sub-law acts, state decrees, and so on, as it often occurs in our country. That is what our friends from Committee of Soldiers' Mothers insisted on, and I fully agree with them.

I. N.: Tell us please, were there some preliminary contacts with our deputies about our alternative draft law, to be precise, your amendments, and what reactions were invoked by them?

N. KHRAMOV: I should say about deputies... We haven't mailed them the memorandum yet. It was developed few days ago actually, but the matter is that we contact deputies and members of the Duma Committee on public unions, in particular, those who have taken part in development of that draft law, more or less often. Really, the draft law includes now many of proposals that we've expressed before, since 1991, I mean, Committee of Soldiers' Mothers and Radical party. But now we have to organize active campaign in short terms, so to say, to influence deputies of State Duma and public opinion not to obtain simply a law on alternative civil service, not only a law not worse that such laws in other European countries, but to use this possibility to obtain the better law, better then any such law adopted during all world practice.

I. N.: Well, I thank you for participating our program and see you!

N. KHRAMOV: Thank you. Good-bye.

A.CHECHINA: Good-bye.

Translated into English by A. Prishchenko, 29.08.91