P. Pietrosanti: This is Radio Radicale. We are very happy and we have the honour to be connected to Mr. Gonghigsuren. He is a prominent dissident coming from Inner Mongolia. It means the part of Mongolia which is politically part of the People's Republic of China. He is a dissident living and operating in the US, and we are connected with him while he is in New York City. First of all, what is and where is Inner Mongolia? For the listeners I have to underline, I am sure that a very high percent of the listeners do not even know about the existence of a country named Inner Mongolia. So, what is Inner Mongolia?

Mr. Gonghigsuren: Inner Mongolia is actually located in Central Asia, and it has a very rich nomadic cultural history and nomadic civilization since a very early age. Everybody knows there is a Great Wall in China and that Wall is actually built to defend China against the Mongols, and we are part of the Mongols. Probably people know about Gengis Khan who conquered some part of the world, and we are direct descendants of that emperor. About 200/300 years ago Mongolia divided into two parts: one is independent, and the other is controlled by China, so Inner Mongolia now is controlled by China. The situation is pretty much like Tibet and East Turkestan.

P. Pietrosanti: So, you said the situation is very similar to that of Tibetans and of that of Uigures in Eastern Turkestan.

Mr. Gonghigsuren: Yes, in certain cases, Chinese Government used a different policy in different regions, but in general discrimination against minority people is pretty much the same. In some particular cases, the Mongols have experienced a very horrible genocide that happened 30 thirty years ago, it last 5 years, about 5% of our generation were killed. Unfortunately nobody is talking about this. They are all talking about genocide in other places.

P. Pietrosanti: Why was nobody speaking about this genocide?

Mr. Gonghigsuren: Because of the location of Inner Mongolia, it is in the Northern part of China, pretty much isolated from the outside world. Western media and Western journalist don't go there, I don't think anybody really took the courage to reach and talk to those people, and even the human rights organisations didn't pay too much attention. I think it's about time to tell those stories considering I am the first person in political exile in the US only two years ago. So even our people did not have the chance to speak to the world. Now we are trying make some progress and let the world know, because the genocide against my people was conducted in a very horrible and very unspeakable way, and most of the people were tortured to death and concentration camps were there. The most important point is that the most horrible crimes against humanity were committed by the Chinese Government after World War II and after the genocide against the Jewish people, and the world had a genocide convention, but nobody in

vestigated then, and still today nobody is investigating, which is very frustrating because nobody is doing anything. Our people is still living in a very dangerous situation, that's why I had to get out of the country and live in the outside world when I was 21 years old. That's pretty much it.

P. Pietrosanti: I think that what you are saying is strengthening the need for an international support. The institutions for which we are fighting so much in the frame of the UN, the establishment of a jurisdictional authority which is able to intervene and to prevent crimes like this all over the world.

Mr. Gonghigsuren: I do agree. Unfortunately the situation is that the genocide case against my people has not been told to the world: the Western media and journalists and politicians could not be into the socalled "blood politics" in Asian countries. Therefore I do agree that the international community should pay more attention to those people who really need their attention, for a further investigation and exposure, I think for the justice the International Court should investigate this case thouroughly and unbiasedly, even from a legal and historical point of view. We should say that until Bosnia this was the second biggest genocide happening in the world, but nobody said anything to the world. I understand that Tibetan people had to experience horrible things, but compared to it Inner Mongolia lived a complete genocide. It all should be investigated and judged, if there is a possibility, a trial should be conducted, because Chinese officials who were doing this are still alive and pretty much in a high

position. It is intolerable in the human position, I think we should have the attention of the international community. The reason I am asking for this is that if we cannot talk and judge about the past, we really cannot do anything in the future. The Chinese Government is getting very nationalistic and in some cases pretty much similar to the Nazis in a fanatical way. So the genocide happened thirty years ago, but it might happen again to my people or to other minority people in China, so I think especially today that China is taking Hong kong and people are paying much attention to what is going to be of Hong Kong, I would not be surprised if in five years the people there would be oppressed, because the Government does not really consider human life.

P. Pietrosanti: We shall come back to the Hong Kong issue and to the actuality of it. I would ask you to give us some numbers of the tragedy of Inner Mongolia.

Mr. Gonghigsuren: In the 1960s Inner Mongolia had 1,5/1,6 millions of people, and during this genocide 150.000 people were killed, more than 10%, but the number could be much higher than this because we could not get statistics from the Chinese Government, because it is considered a secret, and whoever tries to get this kind of information about this is considered a spy. Under this name people have been sentenced to very heavy sentences, sent to prison, and some of my friends are still in prison. 150.000 were killed, more than 10%, according to Chinese official statistics at that time. 800.000 people who were imprisoned and tortured, and the torture methods were absolutely inhuman and brutally horrible and just truly shocking for listeners to listen. My parents and my friends' parents were under that kind of prosecution. And the reason was because they were not Chinese, and they did not want to completely accept the new Government rule and they wanted to preserve their cultural and national identity, it's ve

ry sad to say that so many people were killed and tortured for almost ten years, and some governments had an idea of it, but they ignored it and did not disclose it to the public. Today we have 3 million people leaving Inner Mongolia, I also had to leave, there are many Chinese immigrants who came to Inner Mongolia in those 30 years, they forcefully took the government, it is a very dangerous situation.

p.pietrosanti: So also in Inner Mongolia there is the Peking policy called "genocide through dilution", bringing people to progressively destroy, dilute the local population, in your case the Mongolian population.

Mr. Gonghigsuren: The violent genocide happened 30 years ago, but today what I call the cultural genocide is taking place, because the Chinese policy intends to completely destroy our people, our culture, our language, our ethnic identity, our belief in life, so I think today the genocide is continuing but under a different form, especially considering the cultural genocide which is getting stronger and stronger.

P.Pietrosanti: Which is the reason why Peking wants these national minorities inside the People's Republic of China to be destroyed, what is the inner reason?

Mr. Gonghigsuren: It's a very good question, and I think I have to give different reasons. One is Chinese chauvinist agenda: Mongols and other minorities are supposed to be lower than the Chinese people, and actually such ethnic discrimination has been there for a long time. Secondly, Inner Mongolia is a very rich area and the Chinese Gov. need this land for their economic development and as a space of survival for their people. In order to get this land and the natural resources, the Chinese government has no intention to preserve other people and other cultures living there before. That could be an important reason. This regime itself is just a violent and a brutal one, they don't even consider their own people sometimes: let's us consider the situation in Tiennammen Square in 1989, when the troops killed the young students, the way they treat us is like a bunch of barbarians, they should control you and destroy you by all means. So I don't know if I am answering in a clear way, but those are my reasons.

P.Pietrosanti: Back to Hong Kong. Today it is back to China. Do you think that Hong Kong can be for economic and political reasons, it is under the spotlight in fact, a kind of starting point fo reform in China or H.K. will be destroyed in some years by the strength of China?

Mr. Gonghigsuren: H.K. 2 years ago was a colony of Britain, but it was and it still is a free market in the world, so I think for economic reasons it should have some kind of impact and it's going to be very important for Chinese modernization, but I don't think H.K. can do anything politically for the reform of mainland China. The people from H.K. have to fight for their own situation in the next years otherwise it's gonna be very tragic. So I think nobody should expect any changes because H.K. went back to China, because the cultural influence of H.K. on mainland China is really insignificant, if compared to 2 billion people. Based on agreements H.K. is going to have a lot of authonomy, although we do not know how much of that is going to be realised. It's so sad I have to say the world can do nothing about this, and many Chinese politicians say that the H.K. event is going to be the beginning of another Chinese empire, Chinese nationalism will be encouraged by this.

P. Pietrosanti: Inside the Chinese Communist leading group there is some fight, there are some wings which want to do different things in the frame of the Chinese Communist politics, but probably there is something moving inside the Chinese nomenklatura. What do you think about this?

Mr. Gonghigsuren: If you look at the Chinese history, it is the history of struggle for power, there was not any political democratic rule, law or election. It's obvious that China is the greatest powerstruggle country in the world, so it will always be the same. Such struggle is not going to change the entire society because the general public is not given any right, any freedom. In the last 50 years politicians played their own game and they never considered people's life. We have to consider that when Deng Txiao Ping was there, everybody was saying the situation would become more democratic, so far we haven't seen any sign. Politics is something for interestgroups, whatever they are doing they are doing it for themselves and not for the people. I don't really expect any changes, people expect turmoil, it's not gonna be for cultural reasons but for economic reasons.

P.Pietrosanti: That is, power and money.

Mr. Gonghigsuren: Yes, that's what I am saying. Money, economic interest.

P.Pietrosanti: On the other hand some analysts, and somebody in other parts of the world think it is reasonable to invest on the dynamics that the economic reasons can bring in the political scene. There are those who think that free market could progressively change the political scene in China. What do you think about it, do you think economy can bring democracy somehow?

Mr. Gonghigsuren: I think years ago people were really talking about this, especially when President Bush and other people were using similar arguments. Chinese economy has been growing so fast, but so far we have not seen any sign politically and in general society and individual freedom. So if people say that if they have more money they are going to have more freedom, I think it just cannot happen that way, I think people are really distressed by the money, so nobody is really thinking about democracy and freedom. H.K. is different because people were worrying about what would happen to their investments, but once they realized they could keep some money down there, they stopped caring about the freedom of the people from H.K. So I just cannot see the link between the money issue and democracy of society. Like the US which at the beginning did have democracy, the rules, but because there was no money.

P.Pietrosanti: How many of you are in exile?

Mr. Gonghigsuren: So far 20 some people, maybe 100 around the world, they are young from 20 to 40.

P.Pietrosanti: Where do they live?

Mr. Gonghigsuren: Some in the US, some in Europe (Germany, Poland, many in Russia and Eastern European countries, even in Mongolia)

P.Pietrosanti: What about the links between you, your population, your country and Mongolia?

Mr. Gonghigsuren: Mongolia and Inner Mongolia were divided by force by the superpowers, when Russia and China made this deal. Our people are still very close, we still have a strong feeling because we think that Mongolia was our land and we have been cut out from that part. The Mongolian government started the democratic changes a couple of years ago after the Soviet Union. This country is becoming more and more independent. Since Mongolia is very small with 2,3 million people, ther is no way they can help their brothers and sisters in Inner Mongolia. Their country itself is in danger in some respect because the Chinese declared that Mongolia belongs to their territory, so it's a very dangerous situation, I am predicting in one or two decades the Northern border of China is going to be very unstable and something will happen against Mongolia, according to the Chinese chauvinist agenda. So I think the world should also pay attention to the situation in Mongolia because they are in danger and vulnerable, too.

P.Pietrosanti: Last question, which do you think could be the role of internation institutions like the UN and also the European Commission in the issue of the rights of Mongols living in Inner Mongolia and of your country there?

Mr. Gonghigsuren: It is very important and very needed. Unfortunately in the last 50 years especially the United Nations and other influencial institutions have not done a very good job for us. I think we do deserve some kind of attention from those institutions. Whatever support and concerns are very helpful for our people and at least it is a very good gesture, even very little efforts by UN and European Parliament: it's best to hear all these voices and have assistance.

P.Pietrosanti: I would say to the listeners, that thanks to you and thanks to what you have been saying each and everyone of the listeners have now a lot of work, a lot of activity to do for your people, for the cause of the creation of a really working law at an international level.

Mr. Gonghigsuren: Yes, thank you very much for making this interview happen. Thanks to the Radical Party and Radio who gave me those chances. Hopefully one day I can go to Europe and talk to those people about the problem of our people. I think I should say bye bye.

P.Pietrosanti: Thank you very much, of course we shall remain to be not just in touch, but we shall be working together.

Mr. Gonghigsuren: Yes, I shall do my best to serve my people and in the International comunity, too.

P.Pietrosanti: Thank you very much.