Here is Paolo Pietrosanti in Radio Radicale, we have the pleasure to be connected to Mr. Erkin Alptekin, he is the leader of Uigur people of East Turkistan, he is in exile, lives in Europe mostly. Of course his engagement leads him all over the world, and he is not a fully new voice for Radio Radicale, we had the chance and the pleasure to have a colloquy with him very few months ago. Mr. Alptekin I would like to start asking you one event from the actuality: a very few days ago the Congress of the Chinese Communist Party was over, and it seems that there is nothing substantially new in the politics of Beijing, mostly regarding the ethnic and cultural minorities in China.

ALPTEKIN: Yes, thank you first of all for giving me an opportunity of giving my thoughts, last time we did the same thing and this time we are doing it again. So I would like to thank you on behalf of my people for your concern and interest. It seems that the Chinese Communist Party, the Party Congress with the Party General Secretary Jang Zemin has consolidated his position during the Party Congress, he made some important speeches, he talked about privatising almost 500,000 small or big-scale companies, about 10,000 of them would be privatised according to the new terminology. They will be given out to the new ownerships, that's one thing. The second thing is that he has really seen that he has consolidated his position by purging Mr.Quiao Shi, the Chairman of the Chinese Parliament, who could not be elected by 192 members of the Chinese Communist Party Committee. Recently Shao was number 3 man in the Party, he was also the only member of the old powerful seven man Chinese Communist Party, the Politburo St

anding Committee, as you may know. Several officials including Mr. Ucili, Tian Giui Iun, very close associates of Mr Quiao Shi also lost their seats in the Central Committee. Now the purge of somebody like Quiao Shi who has been advocating the law, the rule of law in China and the pressing for revision of the Party's condemnation of the Tiennamen square facts in 1989 that ended in a military crack down on the demonstrators as you may know, would certainly upset the balance in the inner circle of the Chinese Communist Party, and raise potential concerns about instability, if Chinese leaders like Quiao Shi in the inner circles of the Chinese Communist Party cannot express themselves freely, where are they going to articulate them if not there. So where should they go to express their views freely, that's a question in the future. What could happen in the future. There is also proof that the new Chinese Communist rule is very much opposed to other ideas and approaches. If Quiao Shi, who is number three in the P

arty, can be removed, what would happen to other members who come up to express their views freely. So we don't know where these things will all go.

PIETROSANTI: I am happy that you have underlined the case of Mr. Quiao Shi. He is going to remain the Chairman of the Parliament until early next year. It is true that not every analyst thinks that his firing is owed to the fact that he is more open than others. It is true that he used to be also the Chief of the Secret Service. It is true that he is a very significant figure. It is true that very few Western analysts understand what is going on in China, and that's probably the main problem in China.

ALPTEKIN: Yes, if you are not in the Communist Party as a member, and you are not in the Politburo, and you are not one of the standing Committee members, it doesn't mean much in China, because the Parliament has no power or function at all, it's something like a symbolic thing there. So what that shows, we don't know in the future, but in the past Quiao Shi championed the rule of law, and condemnation of Tiennamen showed that he was a really democratic minded person, but we don't know. For example after the purge of the gang of four, after the death of Mao Tse Tung, everybody was expecting a lot when Deng Tziao Ping emerged well, and the whole world too was writing about how much more democratic China would be, and the most bloody things happened during his time, including the Tiennamen massacre, the arbitrary arrests, and torture and executions in our homelands like Eastern Turkistan, Tibet and Inner Mongolia. So we don't know all these things, how that will come out in the near future.

PIETROSANTI: There is no way to know what is going to happen after the Congress relating to the destinies of minorities, the Uiguri one and the others.

ALPTEKIN: You know very well that in China there is almost 100 million non-Chinese peoples, built up of 65 ethnic groups, 10% of the population in China, although the number is small compared to what we call the Hun people that occupies the 60% of Chinese land area, and most of these people live in the border areas, and among them non-Chinese peoples, because of the historical background, culture and strategic position, peoples of Eastern Turkistan, Tibet and Inner Mongolia play a very important role. These people were not independent until very recent decades, but they also contributed to the enrichment of Central Asian civilisation for many centuries. Unfortunately today they all face a cultural genocide under the Communist rule. For the last 45 years our peoples the Uigures, but I assume the Inner Mongolians and the Tibetans, before every Communist Party Congress hoped that the new Party leadership or the New Party Congress adopted a resolution which might bring some positive changes in our lives, but unf

ortunately in the last 45 years nothing has changed in their lives, on the contrary there was political oppression and economic exploitation, ecological destruction and cultural assimilation, and the racial discrimination is still being continued. All the arrests, tortures and executions are continued, and this has been condemned by many international and Government organisations and even by the UN Reporteur, so unfortunately nothing has changed and people lost hope. In this meeting on Sept. 17 if I am not mistaken, during the session of the Party, the Chinese leadership praised the Chinese authorities policy in East Turkistan, Tibet and Inner Mongolia, saying that the authorities are doing a fine work there. It means they hail all this oppression down there, and nothing has been said to improve the lives of these people, those who like to live with their dignities. So all this shows that this Congress will not bring, as in the past, any changes to the lives of our people at home in a positive manner. We don

't hope too much.

PIETROSANTI: I have to say that in his very recent visit to Italy, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan leader, religious and political leader necessarily, said publicly to journalists that he thinks a dialogue with Bejing to be possible. Do you think that a way through which dialogue could be open?

ALPTEKIN: His Holiness the Dalai Lama is not only the spiritual and political leader of his Tibetan nation, but as you may know he is also the common spokesman of the Alai Committee of ET, T and IM which we have established in 1985. Since then His Holiness has been championing not only the cause of the Tibetan people, but at the same time he is also championing the cause of the Uigur and of IM wherever he goes, and we are very thankful for that. I don't have information whatsoever regarding that His Holiness' Government in exile and the Chinese Government have started some kind of a dialogue. If that dialogue without any preconditions has already started, we would certainly welcome that, because Uigures always believed in the fact that dialogue is the foundation for a better understanding, co-operation and peaceful coexistence, but trust cannot be developed without dialogue, and there could be no peaceful change without trust. Today dialogue between China, ET, T and IM has become vitally important. If dialog

ue has come to stage, we would certainly welcome that, and we would be happy to hear that. If it has not started yet, we would strongly recommend the Chinese Leadership to start the dialogue with the Government in exile of His Holiness the Dalai Lama as soon as possible, because unfortunately because of the oppressive policy in ET, T and IM our people at home are gradually losing their patience, and nobody can endure the oppression for ever. His Holiness has played a major role in pacifying

the Tibetans at home to carry on their struggle through peaceful means, but for how long, the people at home are living continuous violations, not us abroad, so how long can we or can his Holiness influence people at home to carry on the struggle. So before things get out of hand, I would really call the Chinese leadership to immediately start the dialogue with His Holiness and His Government in exile without any preconditions, to find any peaceful solutions. If that could be done, it would have a very positive impact on ET and IM I am sure. During my visit to Talin in Estonia in July, Chinese journalists coming from Moscow came to talk to me, and asked me whether I would go to China and talk about the Uigurs. I said I am not authorised by my people to do that, but our leaders are at home, most of them are in prison. If the Chinese Government really wants to start a dialogue they should better release all these leaders from the prisons, and as a good will and start talking to them. This is the only way that

we people can solve all the differences among one another I think.

PIETROSANTI: It is not dialogue what His Holiness was talking about, but it was just something very far from dialogue.I would ask you to give the Italian listeners some updated information on the situation of the Uigurs now, your people are a culturally Muslim people.

ALPTEKIN: Uigurs are a very ancient Turkish people from Central Asia, they are grandchildren of the Huns, our forefathers marched to Europe in front of Rome, but they are more peaceful compared to those days. So I don't want to irritate your listeners by saying that I am a grandson of Attila. But the grandchildren are more peaceful than their grandfathers so there is no worry. Certainly now they are Muslims, but before they were Muslim the majority were Buddhists, even before the Tibetans became Buddhists, you can still see the relics of Buddhism in that country. So we have three kinds of Uigurs at home: Muslims, Buddhists, Maniheous ??? Christians; I don't know if they still exist, but the Buddhists still exist, they practice the same religion as in Tibet. We are since 1949 under the Chinese Communist rule, and in occupying our country the Chinese pursued a policy of systematically oppressing our people, trying to eliminate the beliefs and culture of our people. Those who opposed were always punished severe

ly, people were executed and many had to flee to Central Asia, India, Pakistan, and this situation is still being continued until today at home, and many major cities of our country are just like a military fortress, armed police, PLA, patrolling the city. What is very bad for our population, is the population transfer. Before 1949 there were only 300,000 Chinese in my homeland, but now according to Chinese statistics they are more than 6 million people and every year between 250-300,000 Chinese are marching to our homeland, and the great fear is they might lose their cultural identity among such a huge Chinese population, and birth-control is another problem, to genocide the language of the Uigurs a fierce campaign has been carried out under the pretext that language must serve the unification of the motherland, and education tends to keep Uigurs in ignorance. At present almost 70% of schools are taught in Chinese, and this is a very bad sign. Uigurs were known (Marco Polo's memoir, other scholars said that

the Uigures played a major role in Central Asia civilisation): today there are so many relics in the British Museum and the Berlin Museum and S. Petersburg Museum, Paris

Museum. Only 16% of the publications in ET is only in the Uigur language. Economy favours the Chinese, ET is a very rich country according to the Western geologists, who explored the country: they say in the middle of the country there are 20 billion tons of oil reserves, 20 million cubic metres of gas. Our oil reserves could meet the needs of Europe in the next 60 years. Uranium, gold, silver mines are in that country. But Uigurs live in a very low subsistence level in that country, they could easily face famine, in the South they are without shelter, food or clothing. The Chinese who came to ET all have a job, but the unemployment rate in our country is very high (60-70% being unemployed which is a potential danger there). ET was the centre of Chinese nuclear testing: 46 tests were conducted in ET which led to a disaster, polluting not only human beings but also water, animals and food-stuff, according to a report issued by The People's Hospital in Uruchi in 1993, the rate of fatal cancer was only

several cases per year in that hospital at the beginning of the century, in the 1960s tens of cases per month, and in the 1970s it grew and grew. At the moment the report says that out of 1,500 people coming in daily, 70% have cancer. The tragedy has led to an increase of discontent, in February there was turmoil, many people demonstrated in the streets, there were uprisings, bombings in various parts of the country. Now many Western scholars believe that because of these Chinese policies, if a major uprising takes place in ET, it could spread into T, IM and Central Asian Republics. Last year I was invited to a UNESCO conference in Kirgisistan ???, and many officials, to whom I talked there, said that they are under great fear that if a major uprising takes place in ET, many Kirghisi, Kazachs (???)could voluntarily march to help their ethnic brothers beyond the border against the will of Governments in the Central Asian Republics, and they could be involved in a conflict with China, and this is their great

fear. Now to solve that problem the only chance is a dialogue with the Chinese, which cannot continue with this policy. If the people rise defending the cultural identity, I cannot think of the way they can achieve that, because the many young Uigurs to whom I talked said that Chinese have bombs, cannons, soldiers, we have a will of steel though. They can kill us, but they cannot kill our dignity. So if this situation continues, hopelessness can lead to violence, to destruction of the Uigurs. Nobody is going to get anything, the only way is to sit down and try to solve these problems through peaceful means by talking to Uigurs.

PIETROSANTI: Do you receive some political support to your cause from the Muslim countries?

ALPTEKIN: Unfortunately not, most Muslim countries feel for us, but their problem is different. When I talked to Muslim representatives at the UN, the answer was that whereas in the past they were relying on Soviet Union, but now it does not exist anymore, so they rely heavily on China, and it is impossible for them to support our cause, because they do not want to antagonise China. No country until now has supported our cause. They might have some feel, but no country has come out for support, which does not mean weapons, but on a humanitarian basis, for example that they raise their voices in the international forums like the UN, but until now they were unable to do that for the reasons I told you. We fear that the conflict going on in Afghanistan, Kashmir and Kagikistan could fuel discontent in my homeland. Uigurs are very courageous, 2,5 million Uigures lost their life and 500,000 were sent to China and disappeared, 500,000 had to leave their motherland and find refuge in the neighbouring countries. The

moment we rise against the Chinese, they will use it to slaughter us, so we don't want to give the Chinese the opportunity to slaughter us. Because of this reason we want to carry on the peaceful fight, but especially young people are losing their patience, because they see the Chinese never talk to us and we are not treated as human beings, they treat us as primitive, dirty, backward. They treat us as people that can be kicked around very easily, even a common Chinese treats us like this, not only authorities. I witnessed this with my own eyes in 1980 and 1983 when I visited there. So no country has helped and assisted us.

PIETROSANTI: How many are the Uigurs living in ET?

ALPTEKIN: Chinese statistics say about 8 million, but we have Uigurs who claim we are 13 million, I would say the reality is between 12 and 13 million.

PIETROSANTI: I submit a question to you. The destiny of these peoples living under the power of the Chinese Communist Party is the same destiny suffered by the dissidents in China. Which is the stage of the contacts between these entities, dissidents for purely political reasons, and those who come from ethnic minorities?

ALPTEKIN: Dissidents are so many, if you are referring to Wei Ging Shin (???), are you trying to refer to him?

PIETROSANTI: Yes, he is the most well known.

ALPTEKIN: Of course we have heard his name abroad since 1990s, and being a journalist myself I don't know him personally, but through the media since 1980 onwards. What he feels about the Uigurs I have no idea. I have read some letters and petitions written about the Tibetans, but what he thinks about Inner Mongols or Uigurs we do not know. So I cannot really say, we don't want to see anybody to be tortured like him. But what we don't know what he feels about our people in ET.

PIETROSANTI: Do you feel you are suffering the same destiny with these people, even though ethnically different? Do you some contacts with the dissidents?

ALPTEKIN: Not directly in China, but we have with the Democrats outside China, with Tibetans, Mongols, we are going to have a meeting in Hamburg. I am for a dialogue with the democratic movement of China to explain to them our position, history, culture to help us in our self-determination. We don't want to be the donkey in the democracy after the fall of the Communist rule. My father always said: "look, we are donkeys, and whether the man who is sitting on our backs has a red or a black shirt does not matter. So it would be unacceptable for us if the Democrats, once rejected the Communist rule, went on like this. We would like to talk to the democratic people living abroad, to convey our messages to the hundreds of millions of Chinese who would have a democratic China rather than a Communist China.

PIETROSANTI: We thank you very much, shall remain in touch, because we are fighting for the same cause.

ALPTEKIN: I would like to thank you very much for the kind interest, and I hope we can stay in touch in the future.