From: M.Sisani@agora.stm.it

This is the integral transcription of an interview to Prof Samdong Rimpoche, Chairman of the Tibetan Parliament in exile. The interview, done by Paolo Pietrosanti, has been entirely broadcasted by the Italian Radio Radicale, one of the most listened nation-wide radios in Italy.

PP: We have the honor to be here with Professor Samdong Rimpoche, the Chairman of the Tibetan Parliament in exile. He, his name, is already known to the listeners of Radio Radicale, thanks to the weekly programmes broadcasted by the Radio on Tibet.

Prof. Samdong Rimpoche, you have had, during your visit to Italy, some important meetings, with people, and with high level institutioonal authorities. I'd like you to begin from these meetings...

SR: this is my first visit to Italy, altought we have many many friends and supporters in Italy. The Province of Terni has invited me in the occasion of the 50th anniversary of teh United Nations Organization, and I did not realize, in the beginning, that I would have had such opportunity to meet so many people. But on my arrival here I realized that I were to meet political institutions, and representative people. My visit to Terni Province was a very peculiar experience. In spite of being, Terni, a small and remote province, people in taht area are very receptive to the Tibet cause.and especially the youngsters, to whom I had interactions with. Yesterday and the day before were very impressive, and in teh same time I met the Prefect of the Province, the Counsellors, the President and the Mayor, all of them very supportive and symphatetic, which encouraged me. Then, I visited Rome, twice.In this double visit to Rome, I met teh Vice-Chairman of the lower House, teh Camera dei Deputati, I met teh Vice Chairma

n of teh Senate, and I had a hearing in front of the Enlarged Chairmanship of teh Foreign Affairs Commettee.We had a very good discussion and I was veery much satisfied by teh results of my visit.

PP: You have a large experience of high-level meetings with parliamentarian and governmental authorities, all over the world. What does it happen when you have official meetings with high-level politician, as you have had in this trip to Italy?

SR: As I've mentioned in the beginning, I was very satisfied, and I was very impressed by all the people I met. Mostly, whenever I meet high-level people, they are very cautious, diplomatic, and not very open, very friendly. Each word they say is very much examined, evaluated. All teh Italian friends I met during last days were very open and appeared to be very sincere. Therefore, I have a very great hope that we could have a very effective initiative in Italian Parliament, and also in the Italian publicc They came out with very sincere and very open minds, and not in a diplomatic way: they discussed with me, and our conversations were very friendly, without any of the formalities of the diplomacy and of cautiousness. Which is a great encouragement for me.

PP: During your press conference I was very impressed by some of your words, wich sounded like: "Our cause doesn't catch enough attention by the world public opinion, because we stand firmly on the side of nonviolence". We should print these words pronounced by you in capital letters, and spread them... This is one of the problems of the current world situation. So, how could we help the strength of your nonviolent approach, in order to make it win?

SR: Today, everywhere in the world, the problem is the struggle between violence and nonviolence. Most of the world problem are currently created by direct or indirect violent acts; and violence creates violence. No problem finds stable and durable solution, by this way. So, we have to realize that only the nonviolent method is the proper method, which can bring about stable and permanent solutions. to any kind of problems. What I've said during the press conference is taht we shall have to be a little patient. The nonviolent method does not catch immediately the public attention, but slowly it does, and that attention will be very genuine, simphatetic, and durable. Because we, people who are committed to nonviolence, we are - in a way, harmless, as well as of no benefit to others, immediately. The whole people do not immediately notice, but whenever they do notice, they do that with full genuinity, and seriousness. And we shall have to be patient, to wait. Every day we shall have to ask people to come out,

in solidarity with nonviolent people, and nonviolent actions. In the world, generally, teh mayority of people are on the side of nonviolence. But they are not very active, they do not speak out, they do not express it in an effective way.So, we have to tell them taht to keep quiet against violents acts is amounting to support aggressors and violent people. We shall have to oppose them, with sense of love, not with sense of heatred. With sense of love and affect we shall have to oppose very firmly and strongly the actions of violence. And by this way we can gradually consolidate the power of nonviolence.

PP: You have proposed a great action to Tibetan people: the Satyagraha. Can you explain to the listeners what it means?

SR: Satya is the Sanscrit equivalent to Truth, and Agraha means Insistence on it. People suffer because they are not with the truth, and even if they are with the truth, they are not insisting on that truth. And it brings many negative happenings or changes. For example, the Tibetan people are basically religious people, nonviolent people, but during the last 100 and so years this commitment to truth and this commitment to nonviolence has been in many ways deteriorated and we could not keep up to the level of our standard, which is necessary for a nationhood, or for an ethnic group. That is the cause of the Chinese occupation, and China could occupy Tibet very easily, and the Tibetan people has suffered a big deen for the last 45 years. And now we shall have to realize what is truth, and we shall have to insist on that, whatever will be the difficulty which will come to us. And only insisting on the truth we can reach whatever is lost. This is my belief. And I'm telling Tibetan citizens that now we must real

ize what is truth, and we must rededicate ourselves to that truth; and then, whatever will come to us, we shall have to stay on it, we must insist on it. To that way, alone, we can reach our lost freedom, and our lost heritage, and our lost peace. It can be restored in this manner. This is my firm belief, and I share it with my fellow citizens of Tibet.

PP: What can we do, being out of Tibet; what can be done by people living out of Tibet, including Tibetans?

SR: People living out of Tibet can do a great thing; you can do a lot of things. First of all, you can tell people the situation of Tibet. And you can tell the Chinese people or the Chinese authorities how wrong is their doing in Tibet; and that they have not any right to to suppress, to make a genocide, a coltural and phisical genocide. So, you can educate the Chinese people, the Chinese authorities, you can tell them, you can remind to them. As individuals, as groups, as parties, as communities, as nations, as parliaments, everywhere you can race your voice against the Chinese occupation, and what they are doing in Tibet. And you can also educate the international community, on what is happening. and and you can say what is right and what is wrong. and you can send a lot of your mental energy to the suffering people inside Tibet.You can send a lot of love to the suffering people, as well as to the Chinese authorities. They must realize, they must have wisdom to judge their action and what they are doing. A

nd they should realize that. And you can write letters to them. You can show your solidarity to the people of Tibet. and you can organize a public awareness building, and you can write articles and informations in various medias. And at least you can disagree as individuals on what China is doing, today. That disagreement means something to China, as well as to Tibet.

And you can pray, you can send simpathy and love, mentally. And you can do all these things. Even at an individual level. And as an organization, as a group of people, you can do much more. If your support, your solidarity and your simphaty are not transmitted in a very aggressive action, even then it is very effective, and it has its own value.

PP: Looking at Tibet from the viewpoint of us, living in Western Europe, the main problem is that 1.200.000.000 people live in China, and they represent an enormous potential market for western products.

SR: This is now a big problem everywhere. But what I would like to say is that after all the human dignity cannot be evaluated by a commercial value, by financial values, by money value. For the sake of a market can any nation ,or any individual forget all of his moral obligations and moral responsability? If your answer is yes, I've nothing to say. If you have a little doubt in your mind that in spite of the financial game I as an human being, we as a human community have a little bit of what is called moral, justice, which has some value today, so you will have to think twice you have to choose between the economic market and the moral and human values. If you choose only the economic value, then I've not any word to appeal to you: then you will go on your way, and I'll go on my way. But anybody who thinks a litttle bit of a value system which is apart from financial values, a kind of moral and ethic, then I would appeal to that angle,and to that mind: if teh market it at the cost of violations of human ri

ghts, suppression of people, killing and genocide, your market is very poor, your market is out of scene. Also you, by using taht market and deriving profit out of that market, you take part to that injustice, you take part to that phisical and coltural genocide. You cannot say that you yourself are innocent. Because you are directly or indirectly supporting it. For example, you say that human rights and trade relations should be separated. If you separate them, you will even find material problems. When the question of copyright comes out you cannot compromise. Human rights can be compromise for the sake of trade, but you cannot compromise copyright. So, the other day I was telling an American friend of mine that for the holders of Americardthat copyright is much more valuable than human right, because human right is negotiable, while copyright is not negotiable. This is very funny; and if you accept this position, then I've nothing to say.

PP: Professor Samdong Rimpoche, as a transnational organization, which is the Radical Party, as an organization which has been recognized by the United Nations as an NGO with status of category I, which is a political party which decided not to take part to any election, well You know what Radical Party is... I permit to ask you an advice. for the Radical Party. What should Radical Party do, what should radicals the members of the radical party do for the cause of Tibet, which is the cause of democracy in China and in the world?

SR: I have no new advice or idea. What you are doing now is a wanderful job, and you should continue it. The committment to justice and the commitment to nonviolenceare very very important today. And these two committments must be reaffirmed by each of your members. And by reaffirming these two committments I think we are fully doing our obligations.

PP: Professor Samdong Rimpoche, your visit to Italy has been more than an occasion to create also in Italy a cross-party group in the Parliament. I'd like to ask you one more advice. By having in several Parliaments in the world this kind of political tools, which steps forward in the political action should these MPs do?

SR: The Parliament forum is a very powerful forum everywhere in democratic countries. The vast majority of the countries are democratic, and are now joining the democratic system. Therefore, the parliament forum is more and more important and powerful, a forum from where the representatives of people are speaking. Therefore, the parliament forums should express their views, firmly and clearly, without any fear. That is very important. When the parliamentarians express their views, currently without any prejudice against or for, that will have immediate or long-run effect. Undoubtably, it will have a great effect. So, the parliament Intergroups: there are many issues which are above party interests, which concern the entire humanity and the international community. On these issues all the parliamentarians, irrespectably to their party alliance, they should join in together and express their views for the higher benefit of the world community as a whole.

PP: How do you foresse teh relations between Tibet and China for the coming years?

SR: I do not hope there could be a fruitful relation, that a genuine relation can be established in the near future, for the next year or for the next two years. Although His Holiness the Dalai Lama and all the Tibetans in exile are very open to re-establish our direct dialogue with Chinese authorities, without any pre-condition, and Chinese authorities always say that they are ready to talk with His Holines teh Dalai Lama, they have never come forward with any kind of specific proposal. They are putting pre-conditions impossible for a fruitful dialogue. But we are still hopeful that china may realize the facts' reality, and they may come around a negotiation table and we can find an amical solution acceptable to Tibetans and Chineses. That's our hope; but by logic and by reason, I cannot foresse that we will have genuine, good relations in the foreseeble, near future.

PP: So, what is going to happen?

SR: We are now facing a very peculiar situation, because time is running out. I know that the nations fight for their independence for centuries, and then they got their independence. India was occupied by foreign powers for more than 200 years, and they continued their struggle and at last they got the independence. But Tibet is not like that.Tibet is occupied by - I don't like to use this word, but it is a fact - by an uncivilized force which is determined to destroy completely the basic existence of Tibet. Then, if freedom for Tibet is not reached in a reasonably short period, it will not remain any Tibet. The entire Tibetan plateau is transformed in a Chinese territory, or in a Chinese populated area. Then, even if tibet gets its independence, it would be only a political entity, and nothing else. That separate political entity would be a separate portion of Chinese civilization, and not Tibet as a country. It may be called Tibet, but it will not be Tibet as it was.

Therefore we are thinking to launch a Satyagraha inside Tibet, and all the Tibetan people who are qualified for Satyagraha should go back to Tibet: we should die inside Tibet. Because Tibet is going to disappear... Many people think that against the Chinese oppression a small people Satyagraha would be just like a suicide. But even if it will be a suicide, we are goingo to be completely destroyed, and then it is better to be destroyed during a Satyagraha movement. That is our idea. We cannot foresee anything. The only thing is that we are not judging the results. Whatever action we are planning to take is, we do have not to evaluate it by possible results. It is only evaluaed on the basis of what is our duty. And we have to perform our duty. And after performing our duty, we may get results, or we may not get results: we are not concerned about the result.If you judge our action from the possibilities of achieving results, then there can be no action which could be taken in immediate future.

PP: Facing what you have just said you cannot ask us just to express solidarity. you have to ask something more.

SR: As mother of fact, I cannot ask anything to anybody. We have to do whatever is possible by ourselves. Now, it is for you, for the just loving people of the world, to think by yourselves and then you should take appropriate actions, whatever in your minds it is appropriate. Because, what can I ask? For our position, if your help us, we would wellcome. If you remain indifferent, we have not claim on you that you must help us. Even if you oppose us, we have to take our own determined action, in spite of your opposition. Therefore, if you help us, we are thankful. If you remain indifferent, we have no claim. Even if you oppose us, I should say "we are sorry, in spite of your opposition we have to do whatever we feel right and whatever we feel it is our duty". So, that is our attitude, that is our position. Also, even if there is solidarity with us, it is selflessly helping us; because Tibetans cannot offer, neither today, nor in the future. Neither political benefits, nor economical benefits to any individua

l, to any society, to any nation. We cannot give you any hope of a big market, or big trade relations. And we cannot give you any hope of political allignement. Those who are helping Tibet today, they are just loving people, and they are helping us without any selfish motive. And we are bery grateful to them. And those people who are just thinking on the basis of incomes and benefits, of course they will not come to our rescue; and even if they come on our rescue, they will not get any return for that, and it is quite obvious, everybody knows it. So, therefore, I cannot ask anything to anybody. I can only explain te position of tibet. If a civilization and teh heritage of a nation is going to completely disappear, and nobody takes care of it, it would be a kind of black support in the history of mankind. But if it is that, we can't help it.

PP: Professor Samdong Rimpoche, I thank you, and let me say that I'm sure that for the listeners of Radio Radicale, which is one of the most important nation-wide radios in Italy, I think your voice, your words, your word will remain in the memory of the listeners as one of the most impressive and involving words they have never listened to.

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