Published by: World Tibet Network News, Satureday, June 22, 1996

Source: Hamburg DIE ZEIT in German 21 Jun 96

Text of Interview with PRC ambassador to Germany Mei Zhaorong by Jochen Buchsteiner; place and date not given entitled: "Now we defend ourselves", published by the German newspaer 'Die Zeit'

[Buchsteiner] Mr ambassador, in these next few days a resolution on Tibet is to be adopted by all the groups in the Bundestag. You are protesting against it. Why?

[Mei] It is unusual for a national parliament to discuss things that mean interference in the internal affairs of other countries. Of course, one can talk to us about problems, but we cannot accept a resolution that calls on China to do something.

[Buchsteiner] On the other hand, can you accept that in this country it is also regarded as interference if China wants to influence what the German parliament discusses?

[Mei] You must not confuse cause and effect. It was not us who created this problem, but some Germans who are trying to interfere in our affairs. If we defend ourselves now, one cannot accuse us of interference.

[Buchsteiner] In order to express your disapproval, you even had the Beijing office of the Naumann Foundation closed. Is this not interference?

[Mei] The Naumann Foundation announced that it wants to organize an international conference with the so-called Tibetan government in exile. For us there is no government in exile. Tibet is an inseparable part of China. All the governments of the world recognize this. If we have normal diplomatic relations with the FRG [Federal Republic of Germany], the FRG government also has to recognize it. And this is what the German foreign minister is doing.

[Buchsteiner] The Naumann Foundation also does not question China's sovereignty over Tibet.

[Mei] But if one recognizes that one cannot cooperate with the so-called government in exile, whose obvious objective it is to make separatist claims. We are interested in preserving China's unity as a state. This is a holy good that every nation has to cultivate. If the Naumann Foundation deliberately harms China's territorial integrity, it has personally deprived the cooperation with China of its basis.

[Buchsteiner] Are your surprised at the FRG government's protest?

[Mei] I am surprised that one can on the one hand disapprove of the event with the so-called government in exile, because it is in contrast to the official position of the FRG government, and on the other be incapable of preventing this event. It is a private foundation that does not represent the FRG government, it was once said. But then one claims that the Chinese reaction constitutes a burden between the two countries, and is directed against the FRG government. This is illogical!

[Buchsteiner] From the German point of view an accumulation of incidents is striking: from the expulsion of Beijing correspondent Henrik Bork, through the cancellation of the Chinese Weeks in Munich, to the quasi-cancellation of the invitation of the Bundestag Subcommittee for Human Rights.

[Mei] As far as Mr Bork is concerned: We did not expel him; we simply did not prolong his residence permit.

[Buchsteiner] But there was a reason for it.

[Mei] Yes. If a journalist is accredited in a country he has to report objectively. It is not a problem for us that he has his views and is not of our opinion. All Western journalists in Beijing are doing this. However, that Mr Bork did not write a single objective report within four years, that he abused the state leadership elected by the Chinese people with very bad words - this is impossible. Mr Bork also did things that are incompatible with the status, the ethics of a journalist.

[Buchsteiner] Are there similarly "good reasons" for changing the list of participants in the Chinese Weeks in Munich according to Beijing's wishes, and for finally preventing it completely?

[Mei] We did not cancel our participation in the festival because we did not want the event, but because, in contrast to the agreements and behind the back of the Chinese side, the German organizers had smuggled so-called forums with anti-Chinese content into the official programme. We rejected that. It is impossible that we now hear the reproach from the German side that we laid claim to exercising censorship on German soil. That is an insinuation that is without any foundation.

[Buchsteiner] You even threatened to close the Goethe Institute in Beijing.

[Mei] We never used the word closure. This was alleged by the German side to justify its withdrawal. We only said that cooperation might be impaired.

[Buchsteiner] You are talking of "anti-Chinese content" and presumably mean dissidents like Harry Wu. Could a country that is as powerful as China not react more calmly to criticism?

[Mei] We are calm. But this does not mean that we accept all attempts to defame China and to distort the picture. China is a sovereign country and, like all nations, has the right to correct things and safeguard its interests. Harry Wu is a criminal who was sentenced by a court and expelled from the country. We cannot agree to it that such people are taken into the official programme of the Chinese Weeks, that is, that they are forced on China.

[Buchsteiner] On the third point: Why was the invitation of the parliamentary delegation from Bonn canceled?

[Mei] This is a distortion of the facts. The Subcommittee for Human Rights expressed the wish to visit China and also Tibet in July. We did not reject that in principle, but said that, as everyone knows, it is the holiday season and we therefore have difficulties in receiving the delegation. Thus one wants to put pressure on us. One wants to dictate to us that we unconditionally accept a date set by the German side. By the way: If the deputies really are seeking the truth, why have they not waited with the resolution until they have been to China? The allegation in this resolution is without any foundation.

[Buchsteiner] Is the situation of the Tibetans satisfactory from your government's point of view?

[Mei] The overwhelming majority of Tibetans are very satisfied with the development so far. Before 1959, that is, before the democratic reform, more than 95 per cent of the Tibetan people were still serfs. Since 1964 Tibetans have enjoyed autonomy. Since that time the economy there has also enormously developed.

[Buchsteiner] Nevertheless, their religious and cultural autonomy is denied to the Tibetans.

[Mei] Religious freedom is legally guaranteed and also achieved in practice.

Buchsteiner] Monks are arrested, and even the Tibetan Panchen Lama - yes, where is he actually?

[Mei] When individual monks were arrested, this was not done because of their religion but because they had violated the law. As far as the soul child is concerned - he is safe and sound and lives with his family.

[Buchsteiner] The child was not kidnapped?

[Mei] No

[Buchsteiner] If Klaus Kinkel were to unexpectedly express the wish in Beijing to see the boy, could he be taken there?

[Mei] I cannot guarantee that. Klaus Kinkel will only be in China for a short time. What reason could he have to see this child? This child is not the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama. The real Panchen Lama is chosen by a relevant body determined after a search of six years, after a fixed ritual.

[Buchsteiner] When one listens to you, one gains the impression that the topic of Tibet does not belong to the human rights dialogue.

[Mei] Improvements are perhaps conceivable. We like to talk to those who makes proposals, but not by means of resolutions.

[Buchsteiner] However, it now looks as though the Bundestag will adopt the resolution by an overwhelming majority. Does this mean further ill feelings between China and Germany?

[Mei] I do not know how many deputies will agree to it. It is my impression that many deputies do not know anything about the situation in Tibet. In any case, this resolution is not right. If the Bundestag agrees to it all the same, that is its right. However, it will have negative effects on the relations between the two countries.

[Buchsteiner] In what way?

[Mei] We will see. We do not want our good relations to be harmed. However, if the resolution is adopted, this will naturally and unavoidably have consequences. [Buchsteiner] Could the German foreign minister's trip to Beijing also be affected by it?

[Mei] I do not want to talk about it because it is a hypothesis. We first have to see the facts. Then we will consider what we will do.

[Buchsteiner] What does the Chinese government expect of the German foreign minister's visit in the present situation?

[Mei] If two countries are of different opinions, they should talk to each other. One should not believe that one could impress the Chinese with a cancellation of the visit. At any rate, we welcome that the German foreign minister reconfirmed his trip.

[Buchsteiner] Klaus Kinkel has announced that in Beijing he will address the human rights situation in China. Do you also regard this as interference?

[Mei] We are doing everything to protect and safeguard human rights. However, regarding the human rights situation, there are different views. One has to take note of that. In Germany, for example, individual rights are in the foreground. We are of the opinion that they should not go so far as to violate the general welfare.

[Buchsteiner] Did the dead on Tiananmen Square go too far with their individual human rights?

[Mei] That was not a question of human rights violations. It was not a "democracy movement" either, as it was incorrectly presented here. In addition to peaceful demonstrators, there were also pillagers and murderers who provoked the intervention. The whole situation of the country was endangered. It was a forced measure, which we did not wish, but which was necessary to reestablish order and stability.

[Buchsteiner] It is frequently heard in economic delegations that tones critical of China endanger business. Is this concern justified?

[Mei] That depends. We are not of the opinion that every critical remark should affect trade relations. However, criticism must be justified and objective. But I share the opinion with many entrepreneurs that there are forces in this country that are damaging the very well developed relations between China and Germany for party policy reasons and because they want to distinguish themselves.