ABSTRACT: The Polish movement Solidarnosc is experiencing a momentary crisis, and Lech Wales explains the strategy of resumption of the conflict with the regime.

(Radical News n. 107 of 24 May 1988).

In this issue of Radical News, we have dealt extensively with Poland: Solidarnosc, Wolnosc and Pokoj, the democratic opposition. There is, in that country of the East European block, a movement of opposition which is by far the strongest, the better organized, the most prestigious and the most vital. The most important, the most prestigious personage of that movement was interviewed by a collaborator of our newspaper, whom we will not mention and whom we will refer to with the name of a great Polish poet.

The interview to Lech Walesa published here below has been collected some days before the beginning of the strikes and the May demonstrations in Poland. The press of all the world talked about Nowa Huta, the building yards of Danzig. The workers that occupied the building yards were evacuated with the use of force by the anti-riot police; in Danzica, those occupying the major shipyards decided to abandon mobilization, to suspend it. Many people, too many perhaps, talked about a surrender. But there was no surrender.

Lech Walesa was among the workers occupying the building yards; a man who has long since been a symbol, without, however, ever having ceased being a leader, a guide, a political point of reference. Together with him, the young workers of the building yards suspended the occupation because they were faced with an impenetrable wall; they had asked to talk, but they found the most stubborn silence. They were asking for salary raises and the acknowledgement of Solidarnosc inside factories. The situation did not allow to foresee any other solution than the use of violence on the part of the regime: in Danzica they acted in such a way as to avoid using that violence.

There is, in this, both a discovery and a confirmation.

The Polish opposition, Solidarnosc, has been often mythologized; and this has lead, at times, to forget the humanity of those who make up the Polish free union, and who make it live. That organization, which is solid - in spite of everything - and strong, is however a compound of human energies and intelligence.

The confirmation relies in this, that the choice of political non-violence is, for the Polish opposition, deep and conscious. When there is no other solution than the use of violence for his interlocutor, the non-violent individual has the duty of avoiding it, if the situation does not induce to believe that suffering a violent repression can be effectively useful to achieve the goals has set himself.

Walesa stated that the clash has simply been postponed, and that it will even harsher. Is this plausible?

It is probably enough to read the interview to the leader of Solidarnosc, here below, to understand that the mobilizations that have developed in Poland around the 1st and 3rd of May represented an extremely important moment, but a moment that was part of a broader programme of initiatives; even if very difficult situation. In the following pages you will find an extensive reportage by Giovanni Negri on his trip in Poland; and two very interesting interviews: one to Geremek (world known scholar of medieval history, perhaps the most important of Walesa's advisers), and the other to Jacek Csaputowicz, leader of the Wolnosc i Pokoj movement (freedom and peace), on conscientious objection. In Poland, conscientious objectors represent the vast majority of political prisoners. This interview was made some days ago by Adm Mickiewicz (the fictitious name of a Polish collaborator of our newspaper) for Radical News. Of course - as can be easily understood when reading the interview - the interview was made before the

recent tragical developments of the Polish situation, but is still of great interest, especially because the answers given by the Nobel Prize provide us a representation of Solidarnosc's current positions and those of the government of Warsaw, which is, as obvious, directly connected to the workers' agitations of these days.

How do you judge the situation of present day Poland? Do you see any solutions in the present situation?

The fact that Poland has enormous problems is a true disgrace; we are ashamed of the fact that the regime reduced us to beggars of the world. And not only Poland is a beggar, but it also hinders the development of other countries. I'm referring to all the countries of this system, for which the crisis is a common factor. These last years have proved the non-validity of this system; and for this reason it is necessary to change it. The problem is how to achieve - starting from the situation caused by this system - to a form of normality. There is no other way but that of the reforms suggested by Solidarnosc. To accelerate our development, we must use the modern means offered by technique; but modernization implies risks as well, the prevention of which is possible through a cooperation with the countries that already have a long experience in this field.

Can we therefore say that we are witnessing the final collapse of the governments ruled by communists?

This system, these authorities, behave as any other authority faced with failure. It has failed as compared to the epoch we are living in. Our epoch calls for speed; this system cannot afford this speed.

The sources of the regime say that the influence of Solidarnosc is on the decline, that the union has lost the support of society.

The government, of course, must say what it says, because it is the heir of the failure.

We are not putting pressure against the cadres or the people; we are not struggling to obtain power. We know, instead, that certain social behaviours call for changes. Solidarnosc today is stronger, is victorious: not with violence, but thanks to its proposals. After the 13th of December 1981, the authorities used violence against our arguments, but managed to solve nothing. And now they are undertaking precisely those reforms which we were asking for; we must not listen to the things that are said, but look at facts, at what is happening.

Since 1980 there have been considerable changes in this system; the government took the correct direction. But it will be able to obtain some results only in two or three hundred years; and we cannot wait that long.

What can we do, then? How can we influence the situation?

There is a terrible struggle going on in Poland. It is not a struggle that is being enacted in the squares; we don't want that, we don't want to be beaten up, and we don't want to beat anyone up. We want verified reforms, hence the reform proposal advanced by Solidarnosc. It is based on pluralism in the three fields: economic, social - which guarantees and completes the first - and political. Of course, the authorities say that, given the difficult economic conditions, the time is not ripe for democratization. On the contrary, we believe it important for society to be involved in a broader way in the struggle for the future. The system has definitively collapsed; the solution of the economic problem is the most urgent one. For this reason we consider economic pluralism to be so important. It is necessary to draw from all the models throughout the world that have proved to be valid, and not to hinder the attempts to introduce them in our country. There are markets, taxes, banks; this is the solution to the p

roblem. We cannot invent completely new economic models. There is the Eastern model and the Western model: we must gradually - and necessarily - pass from one system to the other. It is necessary to establish relations of cooperation; and this is possible only if there is a favourable climate. The deficiencies of our system are huge. We need to buy everything, starting from teaspoons; in order to buy a home, we must wait 40 years, and 20 to purchase an automobile. We want the reforms in order to be in the condition of performing commercial exchanges with the West. The State should create the conditions for these exchanges to take place.

I am talking so much about the economic problems because the situation is serious. Solidarnosc is suggesting radical changes, to be achieved on the way of evolution and gradualness; not out of fear, but out of need. This system has made us invalids from an economic point of view. All is falling to pieces; it is a system full of absurdities. It is difficult to undertake the way of complete cooperation when the problem concerns the most complex economic sectors.

It is necessary to find a way out, but how? Our suggestion is to choose the way of economic reform.

You were talking about economic relations with the West: do you mean credits, or other forms of help?

Credits do not solve much. In our country, as soon as the people in the government change, the economic policy also changes. The question is arriving to a situation in which, even if governments change, the laws of economy remain the same; as in Italy, for example. The relations with the other countries must be formulated in such a way as to be favourable and profitable for both parts. In the 70s the Polish government contracted huge debts and squandered much money. Now things must be conducted in a different way; it is necessary to privilege direct cooperations between the unions of the East and the unions of the West, factories and factories, schools and schools, different scientific institutions, etc. A cooperation must be created between specialists of the different sectors, planned over a long period. This is true for all the countries of the Eastern block; they all need it badly.

Which is the difference between the proposition of Minister Sadowski (the vice-Prime minister in charge of the economic reform, editor's note) and yours? What are the authorities willing to accept?

At this stage they have to accept everything...especially foreign currency, and they could rule successfully only if men were not men and the laws of economy were not rules of economy. I'm saying it as a joke. So many elements point to the fact that the reform has been started in the right direction, but everything for the moment has remained theory, debates, wishful thinking. Instead, the main problem is the one concerning the structures, that is, the guarantee of stability. All that the government suggests now simply appears as a "gift", and does not point to a real resolve to change things. Even if Sadowski were a saint, after him there will be someone else, who might change everything, all the reform projects; for this reason it is necessary to fight for new structures. I often say things that sound similar to those said by Sadowski, but I add that we must have different structures, based on different principles. We want new structures, not temporary solutions, which are candy, which can be given to us o

r not, according to the decision of the authorities. We know that the authorities, including Sadowski, are in a very difficult situation. But only when handcuffs will not be so tight, will a cooperation with the West be possible. The system must resemble that of a ship: in order for it to work it is necessary for each cable to do its job, and all together they can lead to a balance of our economic level with that of the West. Only then will the Poles cease to want to escape from Poland.

Will the authorities agree on a solution of this kind?

We have a minister - Sadowski - often called a "liberalist"; and this is a new fact. The state becomes poorer every day, but the citizens manage to survive thanks to their personal initiative. One part escapes, other have rich relatives outside of Poland, others find a solution somehow; but all this still proves that the system is sick, so much that it deprives people of their will and capacity to operate and risk within this system.

How far is Gorbachev's perestroika influencing the changes in Poland?

The Polish authorities know that they must achieve an economic reform, and carefully examine the suggestions and the activities of Gorbachev. But the problem is that each country must carry out a reform; but in a different manner in each country. The situation is extremely difficult, because on the one hand we must maintain "fraternal" relations of assistance with the other countries of the block, on the other we have to protect our interests. Times change, the opening toward the West is not possible because of different levels of economic development. Will we succeed in diminishing this discrepancy? If we were on our own, perhaps; but we are not alone. We are the ring of a chain of a whole system, and we cannot pull too hard on that chain. In Poland it is the authority that hindered the will to change; in Soviet Union the contrary is occurring. The authority, in other words, wants the changes, but the society still isn't sufficiently involved, and when it will awake, it is impossible to predict what will ha

ppen. We must be careful and try to achieve our goals peacefully, and gradually: at times accelerating, at times slowing down. But always keeping an eye on the Soviet Union. We are left with one eye only, therefore, to carry out the reforms in Poland...