SUMMARY: According to Pannella: " Europe is indeed a reality and as such it must be accomplished in reality". If the European Community had existed as a "State" at the Helsinki conference, there wouldn't have been only two powers, the U.S. and U.S.S.R., meeting, for example, about the Iraq crisis. Both the United States and Gorbacev himself truly need a "United States of Europe". The rise of small national states in the Soviet Union and in Central and Eastern Europe signals the developmentof a "crisis". This is why one "must act quickly". On the other hand, "the United States of Europe would not be so without Yugoslavia", in the same way as Yugoslavia "cannot save itself economically" without Europe.

Pannella complains, then, that Belgrade denied the Radical Party permission to hold it convention in Zagreb. The Radical Party,will, however, continue to petition, --confidently and in a true Gandhian spirit-- mainly and precisely, Milosevic, the man who everybody "fears". It is Serbia's duty to demonstrate that its policies in relation to Kosovo and other republics are right. (Serbia being the place where Marcovic's reforms seem to have met success and interest). In response to the question of whether Yugoslavia's negative image could prevent its joining the European Community, Pannella answers that, if no changes are made, Yugoslavia's "past" will make its future "rot". In his opinion, there is no real issue for Yugoslavia in choosing between becoming a "federation" or a "confederation". The real problem is its relationship to Europe, the economic community and the United States.

(Borda, Belgrade, October 10, 1990).

If we don't start working fast to create the United States of Europe, we will perhaps never have this chance again. You have no idea of the annual cost sfor maintaining 12 European states with 12 Parliaments, 12 armies, 12 budgets, 12 foreign, agricultural, industrial and legal policies!

Annual polls taken by the European Community in all 12 member countries show that a great majority of the population is in favor of a United States of Europe. Also a great majority wants a single government and a single president for the European Federation, says Marco Pannella, president of the Federal Council of the Transnational Radical Party and representative of the European Parliament.

Nela Sert: Is it true that in the past you, members of the Radical Party, have been called crazy for your ideas on the United States of Europe?

Marco Pannella: I would call crazy those who can't see a European reality already exists and as such must be fulfilled. Time itself refutes these people because Europe, if only with the economic and monetary unity and the freedom of movement of both populations and capital as of 1/1/93, will not be the same as the one we see today. But who can say that this is sufficient. That this is where the process of unification ends. Until a few months ago, who could predict that the twentieth century would have experienced the reunification of the two Germanies? And, instead, it is already a reality. We must take advantage of this explosion precisely because we are paying a very high price for the fact that a united Europe does not exist yet.

If the European Community were already in existence as a State -- which would, in every way, be the number one power of the world-- there wouldn't have been only two powers, the U.S. and the USSR , at the Helsinki table for the Iraq crisis.

Three powers would have met in Bruxelles and Luxemburg --the United States of America, Russia and the United States of Europe.

N.S. - Perhaps the formation of a third world power is not in the interest of the U.S. and Soviet Union?

M.P. - I don't think that the United States wants to be the policemen of the world. It costs too much and it doesn't fit their democratic vocation. And I am convinced that Gorbacev himself not only would be ready to accept a United States of Europe, but would also have a great need for it. Why? Because it is of the outmost importance for him that there be no chaos on either side of its borders. The formation of small "independent" nation states in Central and Eastern Europe means to go on with the crisis. Only the existence of a large politically unified and democratic Europe would guarantee order. And Gorbacev needs democratic order in the whole world, precisely because he needs order in his own country.

When this is the way the cards are laid out, when everyone is favorable, then you have to act quickly. By December, the European Parliament will come up with a draft of a Constitution for the United States of Europe., and it will ask the other two European institutions-- the Commission and the Council-- to approve such plan. For Europe it would only be a scheduling question - either you do it right away or you don't know if it will be done and what will take its place.

N.S. - Will the new Europe have room for us?

M.P. - The United States of Europe could not really be called that without Yugoslavia. But without Europe, Yugoslavia will explode, will become impoverished. Both as a member of the Radical Party and as member of the European Parliament, I have been saying this for years to the leaders of your country and your party. The Yugoslav economy cannot be saved through non-alignment, because neither a market nor a democracy can hold up with a population of only 30 million people. Not even with 150 million. The fact of being non aligned was understandable in the Cold War period, but now, in the era of international dialogue, non alignment as well as the "claim" of national independence is sheer folly.

Right at the same moment that, as a representative of the Radical Party in the European Parliament, I raised the demand that Yugoslavia be recognized as a member of the European Community, activists of the Radical Party were distributing leaflets in Yugoslavia calling for the same thing and were jailed, sentenced and expelled from Yugoslavia. This has been going on for years. When we wanted to hold the Radical Party convention in Zagreb, he said no. I asked your then President " Why can't we do this? We wanted to hold our party convention in Yugoslavia for Yugoslavia, because it is seems to us like the most advanced among the Eastern European countries, but if you keep this up, you'll end at the last place on the list. If we can't hold our convention in Yugoslavia, I am sure Prague or Budapest will not turn us down". And he replied: " It is not possible, in any case. You have Cicciolina, and you can't come here with her. So we went to Budapest, with our Cicciolina and the slogan "Today mark

s the fall of the Iron Curtain". Everybody said "What an exaggeration!" Twenty days later, Hungary knocked down its Iron Curtain. If instead of our Cicciolina they had remembered all we had been saying and doing for over 10 years, all the tragedies taking place in the last three years could have been spared. At this moment everybody, from the strongest to the weakest, they're all afraid.. Those who have more power are even the most afraid. They are exactly the ones who must be freed from fear, so that the weaker ones will not be afraid of them. For those who are in favor of Gandhi's principles of non violence -- a basic tenet of the Radical party-- it is essential to trust the person who seems to be the enemy. Precisely because of this, I think that today in Yugoslavia the first interlocutor whom we should address directly, with trust, in order to understand all of his reasons and to help him find a way out, is Slobodan Milosevic.

N.S. - That's because you think that everyone is afraid of him?

M.P. - Yes, yes, yes. And why? Because Mr. Milosevic's image, not only in the European Parliament, but in the whole world, is 80-90% negative, clearly negative. The fact is that the European Parliament has already said twice: "Either Yugoslavia changes its policy with regards to Kosovo and democracy in general, or there will be a break in relations between the European Community and Yugoslavia. ". At the same time, Mr. Markovic's image is excellent because his economic manuevers have surprised everyone in a positive manner. I am not sure whether such images of Milosevic and Markovic correspond to reality, nor does it matter. Granted that even the American congressmen and the Helsinki delegation, which were recently in Yugoslavia, just as the members of the European Parliament, do not see the real situation. We are ready to find out what it is. And, for this reason , either Serbia has the ability - and I don't understand why if it did not have it up to now, all of a sudden, in the future, it sho

uld have it--to prove to us they are not wrong about Kosovo and the other Republics and the Serbs themselves - or, in the opposite case, such policy will lead not only Serbia to ruin, but Yugoslasvia as well. It will strengthen the extremists whose desire is for Yugoslavia to disappear and for Serbia to experience some tragic moments again.

N.S. - with such a negative image the world has of us, isn't it difficult to hope that Yugoslavia will be accepted in the European Comnmunity and in the United States of Europe?

M. P. - Either this will suddenly happen or your past will cause your future to rot, as well as our confidence in you.

N. S. - Presently, we are wearing ourselves down in debates about whether we should become a federation or a confederation. How would a confederate Yugoslavia function within a United States of Europe?

M.P. - A federal nation, a democracy are like a market: either they are great or they do not exist altogether. For the United states of Europe it would be completely indifferent whether Yugoslavia is a federation or a confederation. Take for example Germany which is divided into regions with big powers, and France, which is a centralized nation. Each of them is a member of EEC and is committed to the United States of Europe.

The problem is not whether it is a federation or confederation, because you can have dramatic problems in either. What will Slovenia and Croatia, for example, do in a confederation? Will they join the United States of Europe but not the other Yugoslav republics? In that case, there wouldn't even be a confederation, right? A federation, a democracy, are just like the market. Either they are great or they do not exist altogether. The rules must be the same for the 30-40 regions that form Europe, for the 80-90 European languages. The rules must be the same for everyone.