ABSTRACT: An interview with Emma Bonino on women's situation in Italy, on the struggle for equal rights, on abortion and on the election of "Cicciolina". "I think we are different, not better, than men. Some of us are better, others are worse." "The problem isn't Cicciolina. The problem is that thousands of men have sexual problems...She has turned the frustration of thousands of men into money. Rather than penalize her, men should ponder the reasons underlying this need."

("Sheat Hashin" - Israeli organ of the Movement for Equal Rights in the Representation of Women, issue n.12, March-April 1993)

"Between Rome and Jerusalem I met two fascinating people, a man and a woman. He is an orthodox Jew, she is a Christian and a radical. Yeshayahu Leibowitz in Jerusalem, Emma Bonino, leader of the Italian Radical Party, in Rome. So distant and yet so similar. He ardently preaches against the dictatorship of all regimes and affirms the supreme value of human life. She struggles for the freedom and equality of human rights in her country and throughout the world."

Among the monuments of the recent and ancient history of Rome, in the incredible Rome, built on the vestiges of the past, in the Rome of the beautiful palazzi, of the cruel regimes, of the Vatican, the Fortress-museum of the catholic religion and the spiritual centre of the clergy, in the Rome of the multi-party government, of the mafia and of Cicciolina...In the middle of all this, we are reminded of the sacred Jerusalem. Emma Bonino's words ring so familiar...unequal salaries, division of roles, abortion, religion and state, the position of the feminist organizations in the struggle to obtain equality and the election of Cicciolina. Even her opinions as well-established leader have a familiar ring. She agree on the fact that the core of the problem lies in women's behaviour. She too prefers to deal with "major problems" outside her country rather than focus on local problems. From the very beginning of the interview, Emma Bonino declares she is pro-Israel and expresses her reservations on the Arabs and the

Palestinians in particular:

"I am particularly affected by the events in Israel. Israel is not a dictatorship. In fact, it is a democracy at the heart of the Middle east. The Arab countries are all dictatorships. I dislike Arafat and the means the Palestinians use to promote their cause."

Q: What is the situation of Italian women in the field of politics and employment?

A: I am not the first woman to head the Radical Party. Adelaide Aglietta was elected secretary in 1978. She is currently secretary of the Green Party at the European Parliament. Of the twenty ministers of the current cabinet, only two are women. A woman has been President of the Chamber for ten years.

Of the total positions in the lists of candidates for Parliament, women are guarantied one third, but this does not necessarily refer to actual positions.

Italy is a peculiar country, where the laws are good but where people's mentality, including women's, present problems. For instance, we passed a bill according to which one of the two parents can ask a leave from work. No man has ever used this opportunity. We carried out an opinion poll, and the result was that the majority of women polled said motherhood is something that concerns women alone. These women wanted to be with their child and prevented their husbands from taking advantage of the law and preferred to stay home with the baby.

Most women who work are willing to assume less responsibilities, while men who occupy important positions say they do not want to give up their career. In other words, the structure of society is such that many women, while working, assume most of the responsibilities as regards the home, the children and the old. Consequently most women seek part-time jobs that allow them to take leaves according to the family's needs.

A lot of women work as teachers. In a few Italian cities children come home for lunch. In Rome children are in school until 4 o'clock in the afternoon.

Q: Studies carried out in Israel prove that the reason for the inequality in salaries between men and women lies especially in the appropriations for overtime and expense allowances. Could this be the explanation for the differences of salaries in Italy as well?

A: Women earn less because they prefer to go home early and do less overtime. Men on the contrary are accustomed to work many hours of overtime and therefore earn more. The problem is the employers prefer men who don't get pregnant and don't stay home with the children when they are sick. Men are preferred also in personnel recruitment. That explains why many young women say they do not want to marry and have children.

Q: Are you actively engaged in the struggle for equal rights in Italy?

A: I am more interested in the major social problems of the world. In Italy there is a sufficient number of organizations operating in the field of women's rights. For instance, in the past four years I have been active in the struggle in the States of the former Soviet Union. I have worked with women in Poland.

Poland has recently changed a bill on abortion because of the Catholic church that supported the christian party. My party and I have been very active against the indifference in the world regarding the mass rapes of thousands of women in the former Yugoslavia. No one wanted to hear about them. In Serbia there is a racist regime based on the Serbian ethnic group. The Serbs' aim is to drive out the Muslims from Bosnia. I have no doubts about the fact that sexual violence is used as a weapon, just like cannons and rifles. The Serbs who raped the women said they raped them to stop them from generating other Muslims. Sexual violence is an organized operation, not the consequence of a lack of control during the war. Following our campaigns, today the public opinion is aware of the horror, and the media are also tackling the issue.

Between 1975 and 1976 we concentrated on the struggle on abortion in Italy. During this campaign I was also imprisoned. We obtained a compromise, and today there is a law that allows abortion under medical control within the third month of pregnancy. The real problem is that state hospitals are overcrowded, there is a long wait, and this makes things difficult for a woman who wants to have an abortion. The issue has been constantly followed by the women's organization ever since the compromise was reached.

The problem of the struggle for equal rights in Italy is linked to the fact that most of the women's organizations in Italy have been "incorporated" by the larger parties: the christian democrats to the right, the communists or the socialists to the left. It will take a lot of time before equality is achieved, despite the fact that the law is a good one.

Social development is very slow, also because most women lack the necessary awareness. For instance, when I see some of my comrades from the feminist movement with whom I fought together, and who now raise their children very much like our own mothers, I come to reflect that sometimes we are our own enemies.

On the other hand, there are some independent organizations that are too extremist.

The women who are part of these organizations perceive all men as "oppressors" and believe all women are good.

I believe we are different, not better than men. Some of us are better, others are worse.

In the early seventies I was actively engaged in the struggle for the division between state and religion. In 1972 a bill was passed that forbade the state to interfere in questions of conscience, and established that citizens' religion was a matter of free choice. In 1978 the bill was ratified. Until 1974 the struggle focused on divorce, on women's emancipation and on the right to abortion. Many women headed this struggle and thus occupied many positions. Even the secretary was imprisoned at the time, according to the law that forbade to express one's opinion. Women headed all the lists of the party in Italy.

In the end the party obtained 4 seats in Parliament, and two were occupied by women.

In 1979 and 1980, the central question of the struggle shifted on the nuclear arms race. At the time women had been "absorbed" by the parties. Also, the political life, at least in the radical party, was very demanding. When you are young you devote your time to your family. Men forget their responsibilities towards their family and usually have wives who take care of them in their place.

Q: How do you explain the election of Cicciolina and her success in the party?

A: Cicciolina was successful because she satisfied the needs of many men. She is a highly intelligent woman who has turned the needs of thousands of men into a profitable business.

The problem is not Cicciolina herself. The problem is that thousands of men have sexual problems. I have nothing against Cicciolina. I opposed the criminalization operated against her. Simply, she has turned the frustrations of thousands of men into money. Rather than criminalizing this, men should ask themselves why they have such needs.

In 1987 Cicciolina asked to be included in the list of candidates. We placed her at the 46th position, in alphabetical order, so that she had no chances to succeed. The problem was boosted by the media and she soon became the most famous candidate of the list. People ignored I too was on the list, and she received more votes than the head of the party. Her election was a scandal and so she was elected.

Q: Has she promoted any campaign of sorts?

A: Cicciolina has been active on the problems of sexual relations for convicts. The law allows inmates to have sexual relations with their wives during their private visits to the prison. With the surge of the AIDS phenomenon the distribution of condoms was added to the law.

Q: How did the radical party react to Cicciolina's success?

A: There was a fiery debate on her candidacy. I said we could stop a person from participating in the elections only in the case of a criminal, not of a porn-star. I also said I could not continue being a members of a party that selected its candidates notwithstanding any infractions of the penal law.

The real scandal, to me, was the fact that there were two sacred places in Italy: Parliament and the Church. These things are done in secret. As for abortion, it is commonly practiced but no one talks about it. The same applies to pornography.

But Emma Bonino also sees positive aspects in Cicciolina's election. According to her, the Cicciolina case has forced the public opinion to deal with the question of the perverted need for sex common to many men. Moreover, she believes Cicciolina's election is a punishment for the media: it is they that boosted the phenomenon.

It's all so familiar...could a Cicciolina be elected here too, in a country with a tight coalition between religion and State (and army), where advertising tends to present women as sexual objects and many favour this attitude "for the needs of the public"?

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Addendum 1:

Emma Bonino (44) is a likeable and energetic woman. She has a record of social struggles. She established an information centre on abortion; she included the problem of world hunger in the agenda of the public opinion and fought to obtain funds and ad hoc laws to face this problem; she has promoted several campaigns to defend the civil and political rights of the oppressed minorities, especially the campaign for the "refusniks"; she has organized demonstrations in major European cities and in Jerusalem; she has worked in the Italian and European Parliament. Emma Bonino participated in the establishment of the parliamentary league for the abolition of the death penalty in the world, has struggled for the distribution of clean needles to drug users and has also been arrested in New York during a demonstration. She supported the Polish women in their struggle for the right to abortion and in favour of some states of ex-Yugoslavia. Emma Bonino insisted on introducing the question of mass rapes of Bosnian women i

n the international agenda.

In 1976 she was elected to Parliament, and again in 1979, 1981, 1986 and 1991. In 1976, 1986 and 1991 she was also elected to the European parliament. She is currently president of the 8,000-member strong transnational radical party, including 2,600 Italians.

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Addendum 2:

The Radical Party is a transnational cross-party that fights against violence (in the spirit of Gandhi), for the protection of the environment, for socialist liberties, against every form of prohibition (such as the death penalty and the use of drugs), against party power, against religious power and against militarism. The transnational radical party's appeal for memberships reads:

"With the force of non-violence we can create a new transnational law, that will combine science to power, and where the private and collective conscience will no longer be separated by political decision-making. We must organize a new political instrument apt to create new policies favouring the rights of all the peoples of the world."