Novaya Gazeta No. 21

26 May - 1 Jun 97 (Signed to press 26 May)

p 2

Interview with Aleksey Arbatov by Vladlen Maksimov

Sudden dismissal of the defense minister, General of the Army Rodionov, and the General Staff chief, General of the Army Samsonov came absolutely unexpectedly although the prospect had been discussed for long. The "elite general" did not stay in his position even ten months. In order to find out what happened at the Defense Ministry last week, our correspondent Vladlen Maksimov turned to Aleksey Arbatov, deputy chairman of the State Duma Defense Committee.

[Maksimov] Aleksey Georgiyevich [Arbatov], simply put, is Igor Rodionov's firing good or bad?

[Arbatov] I would like to first say that I dislike kicking fired officials. Bit I have always been against appointing Rodionov to the position of defense minister. Yeltsin's mistake is not that he has fired Rodionov but that he appointed him. The mistake has been corrected today, but this is rather late. From the very beginning, the decision to appoint Rodionov was prompted by considerations of the moment. You will remember how Lebed was pushing him, and Yeltsin complied. There were in principle no grounds for appointing Rodionov to this post. Once Lebed had been fired, Rodionov sold him down the river deciding that the position of defense minister was more important than any gratitude. Becoming defense minister, Rodionov proved that he was absolutely incompetent. I was simply amazed at some of his addresses in closed sessions where his total ignorance of the key questions became revealed.

[Maksimov] What do you mean?

[Arbatov] I once asked him what he thought about the START II? He said that we should not rebuild our forces on the American principles. I asked: Does this mean we should not ratify the treaty? Rodionov replied: No, it can be ratified, but it should not be complied with. I was surprised: Why ratify it then? He reflected a bit and said: Generally speaking, this is a criminal, treacherous treaty. I asked: Does this mean that the person who signed it is a traitor? He was a bit shocked, perhaps: I did not say that, and let us agree that this is a closed meeting. Rodionov used to readily alter his views. Here is an example. Becoming minister on the crest of the reform campaign, he stated that it was necessary to cut the Armed Forces from 1,700,000 to 1,200,000. Which made everyone like him. Literally several weeks later, he altered his stance to state that, until the year 2005, we cannot manage without 1.5 million men. And this is as many as we have today. This man's principle stance was to change nothing, to lea

ve everything as it is. Given the fact that our army is bigger than the United States' army by 20 percent, and our military budget is 10 percent of the American military budget.

...It is quite possible that Rodionov is an educated, cultured person. I would not like to discuss his personal qualities. But he did not correspond to his office. When we were approving the military budget, he did not make a single constructive proposal and only insisted that we should provide 2.5 times more money than planned. Meeting with fierce resistance, at a meeting of the Defense Committee, from Rodionov's close friend Rokhlin, we insisted by the majority of vote that the funds intended for military industry and science be protected. Rodionov and Rokhlin were trying to insist that all the funds intended for national defense be spent on the upkeep of the army. Very rapidly, Rodionov assumed the posture of the Armed Forces representative with the president, their delegate and intercessor. He began to blackmail the political leadership by threatening insurrection in the military and our nuclear missiles' going out of control. It became obvious that as long as Rodionov fills this position, there would be

no reform. Because his main philosophy was -- leave all as it is and gives more money.

[Maksimov] How did the dismissal of the defense minister come about?

[Arbatov] At the meeting of the Defense Council, Rodionov was given 20 minutes to make a report on the state of the armed forces. Samsonov was given 10 minutes. They must have decided to bet it all, and said the time was insufficient and that this was an insult to the army. To which, Yeltsin flared up as he usually does, pounded the table with his fist and said: "If you are unable to have it told within 20 minutes, this means you know nothing about it and are unable to, and I fire you...." Rodionov's appointment was wrong, his firing was also wrong in form, but I am positive that the very fact is positive.

[Maksimov] General Kobets was arrested the day Rodionov was fired. Could there be a connection between these two events? Is Rodionov's dismissal connected with war on corruption in the Armed Forces?

[Arbatov] Rodionov was Kobets' enemy. These events are not connected in any way. I have no grounds to accuse Rodionov of corruption. He even fired some people. General Vorobyev, chief of the Finance and Budget Directorate. Commander in Chief Semenov, although I disagree with the firing. There simply was the Grachev clan and it became replaced by the Rodionov clan. That is about all the change there was. As for war on corruption in the military, I could not see any. One clan replaced the other.

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Johnson's Russia List

27 May 1997

djohnson@cdi.org