stevemac@bud.indirect.com (Stefano MacGregor) writes:"vasta" looks a lot like "vast". "vastajn" looks less like "vast".
This is a good example of your objection, and also of my reply. A non-Esperantist sees the entire inflected word, and doesn't recognize it. You see this as a bad thing; I see it as irrelevant.
[...] When I was 13 I started with Esperanto, but dropped it for a few reasons. One of those was that I did not enjoy learning it.
This may be strange, but at that age I enjoyed the irregular French verbs, seeing what variation was possible.
When I was 14, I enjoyed FORTRAN IV, especially the GO TO statement and the arithmetic IF. You're not the only one who had his priorities
backwards in his early teens. :-)
Also learning the different declinations and conjugations of Latin, and the irregularities, gave more substance to the language than the dead-looking complete regularity of Esperanto.
I'd be interested to hear your opinion of the nearly complete regularity of Hindi, Turkish, Japanese and (I'm told) Aymara.
Do you consider it as dead-looking as the regularity of Esperanto?
Remember, not all natural languages have as many different declensions, conjugations, irregularities and the like as Latin, and very many are much closer to Esperanto than to Latin in that respect.
Esperanto is an agglutinative language and should be judged as such.
Someone who has actually studied Esperanto for a few hours begins to see the parts that the words are constructed from -- in this case vast/a/j/n, and recognizes that the root of the word, 'vast, is the only part that he should attempt to recognize in other languages.
I can't help being amazed by the suggestion that one would have to *study* Esperanto for *a few hours* in order to become acquainted with its morphology. I'm at a loss to imagine what kind of retarded idiot would need more than 15 minutes to commit the whole thing to memory (3 minutes for inflexion and 12 minutes for derivation).
"Na, na ... ah mean, *no wey*, wi aw due respect, ma lady," stammers Joe.'
Ivan A Derzhanski (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) (J Stuart, _Auld Testament Tales_)
* Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK
* Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
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From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Subject: Re: Robots
Message-ID: Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK
References: Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 08:44:49 GMT
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Not that this kind of thing really belongs here (alt.usage.english
would've been more appropriate). But.
In article stevemac@bud.indirect.com (Pascal MacProgrammer) writes:[_robot_] was coined by Karel Capek [inverted circumflex over the "C"] in a play that he wrote, called "R.U.R." (which stood for "Rossum's Universal Robots"). He no doubt based it on a word in his native language (Czech, I believe), for "worker" [...]
Actually, the story goes that the word was coined by his brother. KC was telling him about his work on the play and was complaining that he couldn't think of a good name for the universal creatures in question. His best attempt had been _labor_ (from Latin), but he wasn't quite satisfied with it. His brother suggested _robot_ (from Czech), KC liked it, and the rest, as they say, is history.
"Na, na ... ah mean, *no wey*, wi aw due respect, ma lady," stammers Joe.'Ivan A Derzhanski (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) (J Stuart, _Auld Testament Tales_)
* Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK * Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
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From: Tevfik Erdun Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Is Turkish a new language?
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 00:57:57 -1000
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On Fri, 3 Mar 1995, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
In article <3j54nl$ssm@newsbf02.news.aol.com> mithat@aol.com (MITHAT) writes:
I visited Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan and also attended function of Azeris. I had no trouble in communicating with them in Turkish. As a matter of fact, they themselves called the language they spoke as Turkish.
You mean the language they spoke with you, or the also language they spoke among themselves? I suppose they were not doing their best to speak "standard" Turkish just for the sake of communicating with you? I wonder how the education situation was in these countries until recently, was Turkish used is schools, or was it all Russian?
It doesn't actually matter whether they were speaking to Mithat or among themselves as Turkish is their language. If they would speak so in order to please Mithat, how would they know the difference between their language and the one spoken in Turkey? Even though there are certain different terms in their own dialect, fundamentally both languages are the same. Even though the official instuctional language was Russian, you can not expect the minorities not to talk their own language in their spare time. I used to travel to Moscow almost every month for business and I had no trouble communicating with the merchants who were predominantly of Turkish origins even though their dialect was certainly different then mine.
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From: smryan@netcom.com (Artie Choke)
Subject: Re: duplication?
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What groups of languages do use duplication? Is it often used to refer to something mystical, or maybe abstract? Is there anything in common between cultures that use word-duplication apart from a common ancestry?
Proto-Indo-European used it (called reduplication), but I don't know of any descendants that used it. It was sometimes used to indicate "formed from or of" the base word.
The pair depart upon a horse | smryan@netcom.com PO Box 1563
and fare to face their future's course. | Cupertino, California
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Away! the wealth and worried throne! | What happened to little Artie?
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From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Subject: Re: original Indo-European words
In-Reply-To: fgao@interaccess.com's message of Wed, 01 Mar 1995 00:30:10 -0600
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In article fgao@interaccess.com (ab113) writes:
If I recall correctly, linguists have possibly identified where proto-IE was spoken by the appearance of several geographically words in most Indo-European languages. Without getting into too much detail, I think one of these is a words for salmon, which we carry down into English as "lox". Another is a word for "birch". From these clues, linguists can make a reasonable guess as to where proto-IE was spoken.
This methodology, known as linguistic palaeontology, is not much used since a number of its assumptions have been challenged. For example, fossil pollen studies show us that the birch had a much wider area of occurrence at the time of the hypothesized breakup of the Indo-European community.
More damning, to my mind, is a paper I read (20 years ago, so I don't have the reference off-hand) which collected all the Indo-European cognates for all the Salmonidae and showed that there is no good reason for assuming that the proto referent is a particular North Sea salmon.
My question is, what are some of the other words that fall into this list?
I think one was a word for "turtle" or "tortoise"; certainly other tree names came into play as well.
Rich Alderson [Tolkien quote temporarily removed in favour of alderson@netcom.com proselytizing comment below --rma]
Please support the creation of the humanities hierarchy of newsgroups!
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From: Andre@shappski.demon.co.uk (Andre Shapps)
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Subject: Re: Children and languages
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In article: <1995Feb28.141959.1@ctdvx5.priv.ornl.gov> s25@ctdvx5.priv.ornl.gov
writes:
Presumably there is no experimental way of testing for this, so the theory (hypothesis?) must have been arrived at theoretically, but no one has been able to show me how.
Unless I am misunderstanding you, there is a very easy way of testing the theory: determine whether there is any difference in the rate at which children acquire language skills among the various languages of the world.
You might define "acquires language skills" by way of certain milestones, such as the age at which the child speaks its first word, age at which it is able to speak in complete sentences, etc. From everything I've read (and if you insist, I will post a reference) the average age at which these milestones are reached for spoken language are constant across all languages and cultures.
John
Yes I thought of that kind of thing, but I would have thought that cultural differences would have such a big effect that any differences in the learning difficulties of the language itself would be rendered insignificant.
Sorry if this point's already been made by now. My newsreader's a bit ropey and I think I missed a couple of days while I figured a way around a bug.
Andre Shapps
Newsgroups: sci.lang
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From: olivier@austin.ibm.com (Olivier Cremel)
Subject: Re: duplication?
Originator: olivier@nice.austin.ibm.com
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In article <3j4pjn$ct@amhux3.amherst.edu>, damastro@unix.amherst.edu (David A. Mastroianni) writes:
(...)
Anyway, I was interested by the concept of duplication. It seems
to me that it must be a factor in many African and Polynesian languages, just from my casual contact with them. It's interesting, doubling a word to refer to something...well, related to the original word but somehow..."higher" than it, I guess, in a sort of mystical sense. But then, I'm generalizing from this one instance of duplication.
This does not see, like something that would work in English.
English likes compound words, but duplication I think would sound kind of like baby-talk. Would that go for related languages? (...)
Not compounds, but the French equivalent :
La creme de la creme
La fleur de la fleur
L'essence de l'essence
Le saint des saints
It's meanly used as a superlative.
Olivier.
"Tel se cuide chauffer qui s'art"
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From: gokturk@seas.gwu.edu (Mehmet Gokturk)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Is Turkish a new language?
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Sever Hayri (hxs9268@ucs.usl.edu) wrote:
....
Although I am not sure exactly what you meant by the statement that all the suffixes go on in a fixed order, but I think it is wrong. Look at following two words gel+mis+sin and gel+sin+mis. I just switched the order of two sufixes, "mis" and "sin", and got two semantically similar words from the same root, which is "gel".
Hayri ? Hayrola ? are they equal semantically? How long have you been outside of TR.
Do not mix syntax and semantics. you can grammatically say
gel sin mis sin where second sin is the equivalent of sin in gel mis sin Its a pity that some of you guys still include xxx misiniz as a whole word.
In terms of parsing an generation , turkish is "i believe" a fairly easy to implement . (With my little knowledge from Automata and languages courses) Anybody worked with APL ? It may seem difficult at first, but later ?
Selam - lar -imi sun-ar-im
Mehmet Gokturk
I do agree with you that Turkish is a regular (or harmonic) lang., but there is no mechanical regularity in Turkish.
Hayri
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff / Dilettanten
(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu) /__ erhebt Euch
> /____ gegen die Kunst!
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From: jardar@nvg.unit.no (Jardar Eggesboe Abrahamsen)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: non-linguists
Date: 5 Mar 1995 19:09:46 GMT
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There are so many non-linguists on this news group. Imagine the reactions if I wrote nonsense on sci.chem, insisting that I knew everything about chemistry because I consist of atoms.
This group is called "sci.lang", not "alt.chat.about.lang" or "alt.i.pretend.to.be.a.linguist".
Jardar Eggesb· Abrahamsen jardar@nvg.unit.no
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From: kelley@ede.sanders.lockheed.com (Sean V. Kelley)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: We don't speak no Irish (was Re: Vanishing languages
Date: 1 Mar 1995 17:03:39 GMT
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Daniel von Brighoff (deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu) wrote:
In article ,Fintan Costello wrote:I really think its too late for Irish to be returned to its place as the first language in Ireland. All that can be hoped for is that it survives as a languge of songs, poetry, history etc. I know that the poems in Irish that I read in school really moved me, a lot more than the english ones. Does anybody know of cases like this?
A language being used only in particular areas of thought, I mean?
Textbook case: Hebrew in the pre-Zionist days. Not only was it a sacred language, used for services and prayers (several languges can claim that distinction, like Coptic and Pali), but pretty much all medieval Jewish philosophy was written either in it or Aramic, even though it ceased to be the language of daily intercourse before the Diaspora.
Note that the success of the Hebrew revival doesn't give me much hope for Irish. Their situations are really very different; I can't ever see the Irish finding the drive and energy necessary to restore Irish as Ireland's first language. Maybe if the English were to invade them again...
Thanks for pointing out the political reasons. I knew Irish was associated with Catholicism and nationalism, but I didn't know that those reasons were helping to turn youg people away from it.
I agree with both Daniel's and Fintan's comments on the Irish language.
Very few in Ireland actually bear ill will towards the language. It is more a case of benign indifference and irritation for having been forced to study it through school.
There is really no parallel to Hebrew for the Irish Language. When there are no more native speakers, and that day is coming, the Gaeltachts will lose their special appeal and the enthusiasm the language movement seems to draw from the Gaeltachts will surely collapse.
It is interesting to note, that when you actually visit a so called Gaeltacht, there are no markers or signs letting you know you have somehow crossed into an Irish speaking community. The reason this is not the case is because to actually draw a line in the sand and say on this side Irish is spoken habitually would be laughable to the communities on both sides, and those left out will surely complain that what some thought was a 'true' Gaeltacht is no more different than the rest of the area, a majority of habitual English speakers.
A case in point is the so called Gaeltacht around Gleann Cholm Cille in West Donegal. Yes, there are native speakers in the area. But those you meet are far and few between. The everyday language there and in the surrounding towns is English. Even the local Catholic church uses primarily English, and Irish only for prayer and song, which harkens back to what Fintan mentioned about the place Irish seems to still hold in Ireland today.
When you spend time in the Gaeltachts to actually speak with native speakers, you will find that the Irish spoken is *very* different than what is taught in the schools and supported by the folks in Merrion Square ----It's definitely not Dub' Irish. But in fact is filled with English words. One fellow I met bounced back and forth between Irish and English so much I wasn't sure in which we were talking. Some words would be in Irish, others in English.
That is a sign of a still living language taking on words; but I'm afraid it is also a sign of the last stages of a language loss.
Sean
Sean V. Kelley B'aite liom f in bheith ar Lockheed Sanders, Inc., thaoibh mhala shl ibhe, kelley@ede.sanders.lockheed.com (*)/ (*) Agus cail n gaelach Newsgroups: sci.langIn article <3iuf62$4is$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> Jacques Thu ry <75107.2170@CompuServe.COM> wrote: "Chier" comes from Latin "cacare" that also gave, e.g., "cagar" in Spanish, and, of course, Fr. "caca"="poo-poo". It was widely modified by the palatalization process of French, just the same as Lat. Capra (goat) > chevre, Vacca > vache, and Castellum chateau.
The phonetic similarity with "shit" - a Saxon word - is just a coincidence, it seems to me.
Jacques.
This is amusing. "cacare" and others have undergone such a great shift in pronunciation in the languages of the same group.
An yet, some them 'on loan' to other groups are still pronounced almost as they were in the Roman times.
eg Czech "kakat" - to poo (child expr. 'almost polite')
"kaka'" - he/she poos, etc....
Paul JK
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: PBS is at it again---so are the Linguists
Date: 4 Mar 1995 14:38:15 GMT
Organization: University of Florida
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In article <3j7qfj$gcn@newsbf02.news.aol.com> perotean@aol.com (Perotean) writes:
In a different vein, djohns@grove.ufl.edu (David A. Johns) writes:
Oh, you mean speech antedates writing.
>OK.<
Speech is functionally the same thing as language---unless one consider's baby's babble an example of speech (which I do); the physical utterance of vocal sounds. Wherever one encounters tongue-modulated vocal sounds to convey semantics, one will find
a legitimate language of one sort or another.
Oh, my. Am I going to have to deal with your imprecise use of words again?
Your original statement was "As if any system of writing antedates any language!!!"
Now, you may have noticed that the word _language_ can be either _language[1]_, an abstract mass noun, which means roughly "the ability to speak", or _language[2]_, a countable noun meaning a particular instantiation of _language[1]_ such as English or French.
Your use of the quantifier _any_ in your exclamation identified your _language_ as _language[2]_. Your defenses indicate that you intended to say _language[1]_. Why not say what you mean and mean what you say?
Where is Edwin Newman when we really need him?
David Johns
.
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: philip@storcomp.demon.co.uk (Phil Hunt)
Subject: Re: Esperanto? I thought this is sci.lang
Distribution: world
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In article Ibelgaufts@vms.biochem.mpg.de "" writes:> Goodness, my newsreader does not allow kill files, otherwise I would have killed the esperanto threads long time ago.
If this artificial gibberish is so great why dont you guys form a news group of your own and leave this group to real languages.
If you want to form a new group I suggest you do.
It is possible for to people who know Esperanto, but have no other languages in common, to communicate with each other in Esperanto. If that doesn't make Esperanto a language, I don't know what does.
Phil Hunt...philip@storcomp.demon.co.uk
Majority rule for Britain!
From: -- (Hasan Bercan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Is Turkish a new language?
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Interesting discussion. I have another question that me and a friend in Germany thought much about last year. She gave the example:
"Araba carpan cocugu hastaneye goturduler."
Now the underlined part is really very interesting. It translates: The kid who was hit by a car (was taken to the hospital).
Now, we have a very similar sentence:
"Cuzdan carpan cocugu hapisaneye goturduler."
Which translates as:
The kid who stole wallets (was taken to the police station).
(carpmak= to hit or to steal in slang usage)
We have the same sentence structure, but in the first one, the boy is hit BY the car, ie he is passive, and in the second one he steals the wallets, ie he is active. We can infer this from the text because a wallet can't steal a boy nor a boy can hit a car, but I can't identify what separates them grammatically.
A more dramatic example: Suppose you want to talk about a boy who bites dogs (could happen). You can say "Kopek isiran cocuk" but doesn't it also mean the boy who was bitten by a dog? This sentence sounds quite correct:
"Kopek isiran cocugu hastaneye goturduler." and it implies the dog bit the boy.
You can say "kopegi/kopekleri isiran cocuk" but that would best be
translated as "the boy who bites THE dog(s)". A possible soulution might be to say "kopegin isirdigi cocuk" to emphasize that the dog bit the boy, but it still doesn't decrease the ambiguity of the initial sentence "kopek isiran cocuk".
How would you explain this grammatically? We couldn't answer it. Anyone dare a shot...
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From: DIANA@ACCESS.owl.de
Subject: Re: Gratulojn okaze de (feminismo)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 1995 23:00:00 +0000
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*nikst* meinte im Brett /SOC/CULTURE/ESPERANTO
am : *03.03.95* um *01:29*
zum Thema : *Gratulojn okaze de la 8-an de mart*
n tia 'simetrio' estis kaj oportuna kaj utila - ekzemple, en la lando gxis nun mankas la "feminismo", pri kies grimacoj en angloparolantaj landoj ni fojfoje povas legi en gazetaro. Kaj mi opinias, ke la tradicio ne permesos, ke tiuforma "malsano" ankaux enradikigxu en nialanda grundo.
Fi, fi, fi! Chu vi ne pensas ke estas malsane, se la malplimulto de loghantaro decidas super la plimulto? Kaj chu vi ne pensas ke estas malsane kiam viroj batas kaj perfortas siajn edzinojn? Sen tielnomata feminismo kiu lau vi estas "malsano"(!) virinoj akorau ne rajtus studi, kaj vochdoni. Kaj fakte kiu avantajho estas la vochdonebleco, se oni nur povas elekti virajn politikistojn?
Pardonu, sed de pluraj amikinoj mi konas la virinan situacion en orienta Europo, kaj kvankam ili lau la leghoj estas egalrajtaj, oni nepre bezonus plifortigan instruadon por virinoj . Mi scias kaj agnoskas ke estas diferencoj inter viroj kaj virinoj, tio estas tre bona afero, char en bone funkcianta rilato, chiu parto aldonas siajn fortajn traitojn.
Gravaj projektoj pli bone funkcias se ambau seksoj kunlaboras por ghi.
Oni kutime gratulas cxiujn virinojn (patrinoj, fratinoj, filinoj, edzinoj, amatinoj ktp.) okaze de la festo kaj deziras al ili cxion la plej bonan. Ankaux mi volus gratuli cxiujn niajn retaninojn (Diana, Yvonne, fiera patrino de Josh) kaj pere de ili
Dankon al vi, kaj kiel rekompenso mi volas skribi belajn vortojn el granda afisho kiun mi posedas. Ghi respegulas mian revon pri la rilato inter viroj kaj virinoj.
Don't walk in front of me - Ne iru antau mi - I may not follow. eble mi ne sekvas.
Don't walk behind me -Ne iru malantau mi - I may not lead. eble mi ne gvidas. Walk beside me - Iru apud mi - and just be my friend. kaj nur estu mia amiko.
deziri al ili fortan sanon, amon, amikecon, belecon, sunon, lumon, varmon, florojn, ridetojn kaj ridegon, novajn sukcesojn en laboro kaj en persona vivo! Kaj antaux cxio - grandegan felicxon!
Dankon, same al vi.
Okaze de la dato mi sendas al ili cxiuj versojn de Kalomano Kalocsay L A A M O
Dankon, kaj mi resendas al vi kaj al la geamikoj en diversaj novaj grupoj jenon:
HEBELO Frederiko (1813-1863)
Mi kaj vi Ich und du Ni songhis pri ni ambau, Wir traeumten voneinader Vekighis el la songh'. Und sind davon erwacht. Ni vivas por nin ami, Wir leben um uns zu lieben, Resinkas en nokta replongh'. Und sinken zurueck in die Nacht.
El mia songh' vi venis, Du tratst aus meinem Traume, El via venis mi. Aus deinem trat ich hervor, Ni mortos se perdighos Wir sterben, wenn sich eines En mi vi, mi en vi. Im anderen ganz verlor.
Tremetas sur lilio Auf einer Lilie zitternd Du gutoj apud profund'. Zwei Tropfen, rein und rund, Kunfluas kaj ekrulighas Zerfliessen in eins und rollen Ghis en la kalika grund'. Hinab in des Kelches Grund.
(el "La muzino" de SHULCO Rikardo)
Korajn salutojn al vi chiuj,
Diana, Soest, Germanio
diana@access.owl.de
From: hughett@heifer.lbl.gov (Paul Hughett)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Opposite of Diminutive
Date: 3 Mar 1995 01:58:42 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory
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References: <3ctqg6$q2b@mother.usf.edu> Reply-To: hughett@heifer.lbl.gov (Paul Hughett)
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In article gek655@cscgpo.anu.edu.au(Graham Kelly) writes:
millert@grad.csee.usf.edu (Timothy Miller) wrote:
Does anyone have an antonym for Diminutive? For some reason, such a word has not been easy for me to find.
Superlative is the term.
Graham Kelly
Sorry, but that's not quite right, Graham. The antonym of "diminutive" is "augmentative." Some examples in English: "booklet", "rivulet" are diminutives in English; "supermarket" and "superman" are augmentatives.
For adjectives, consider "substandard," "super-friendly", or "supersonic."
(There are probably other augmenting and diminutizing affixes, but those are the ones that come immediately to mind.)
"Superlative" belongs instead to the series "positive, comparative, superlative" describing degrees of comparison in adjectives or adverbs.
For example, "good, better, best" or "nice, nicer, nicest."
* Paul Hughett hughett@eecs.berkeley.edu
* EECS Department
* University of California at Berkeley
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: kriha_p@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J. Kriha)
Subject: Re: Opposite of Diminutive
Message-ID: <3jfbkm$i5k_005@actrix.gen.nz>
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Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 16:01:26 GMT
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In article <3jemip$f7r@marble.Britain.EU.net>, Paul Sampson wrote: Paul Hughett writes: ... The antonym of "diminutive" is "augmentative." Some examples in English: "booklet", "rivulet" are diminutives in English; Yup. And '-ling' (earthling), '-y' (Johnny), etc. "supermarket" and "superman" are augmentatives. For adjectives, consider "substandard," "super-friendly", or "supersonic."I'm not convinced that these are augment(at)ives. They look like compound nouns to me, adjective/noun compounds that is. As such they're merely examples of what the ancients called dvandva, tatpurusa or something like that - I forget the appropriate term, maybe someone can remind me?
I mean the compound 'blackbird' wouldn't be given as an example of some hypothetical technical term like 'melanicism' would it? Or maybe it would. Good grief, I don't know. I'm only here for the fun of it. Now I'm filled with self doubt, see what you've gone and done now?;
In fact I'm not at all sure that english *has* any augmentatives in the same sense as does, say, italian. None spring to mind but that may simply be due to my lack of imagination of course.
I used to think that English did not have augmentatives.
The earlier discussant made me believe I was wrong, but, 24 hours later you put me right again, thank you. :-)
Regarding the grammar meaning of augmentative, my Collins says: a. denoting an affix that may be added to a word to convey the meaning 'large' or 'great'; for example the suffix -ote in Spanish, where 'hombre' means man and 'hombrote' big man.
b. denoting a word formed by the addition of an augmentative affix.
...Compare diminutive....
Why would CED use a Spanish example, if it could use an English one, hm?
I know, CED is not infallible. Is it wrong?
BTW, I failed to find augmentive. I miss that, I like short words.
Paul JK
From: JAREA@ukcc.uky.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Prussians (Re: Good Finn is a dead and buried one?)
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 95 15:40:36 EST
Organization: The University of Kentucky
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <1735ADC7AS86.JAREA@ukcc.uky.edu>
References: <3ip017$71n@decaxp.harvard.edu> <26Feb95.053556.18546@granite.ciw.edu> <3ip64m$7rr@decaxp.harvard.edu> <3it3p3$ck2@ss1.cam.nist.gov>NNTP-Posting-Host: ukcc.uky.edu
In article <3it3p3$ck2@ss1.cam.nist.gov>
koontz@cam.nist.gov (John E Koontz) writes:
... the Prussians objected militarily to the process of conquest, and as far as I know, so did all the Baltic ethnic groups. But in the case of the Prussians, the process of assimilation was so complete that the Prussians essentially became Germans and/or Poles.
John E. Koontz (koontz@bldr.nist.gov)
Except in, perhaps, Koenigsberg/Kaliningrad, where they seem to have become Russians -- albeit a tad isolated from the main!
Ki semenat ispinaza, non andet iskultsu!
J. A. Rea jarea@ukcc.uky.edu Newsgroups: sci.lang
Path: venere.inet.it!nic.tip.net!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!doc.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!swidir.switch.ch!news.unige.ch!NewsWatcher!user
From: bottani@cmu.unige.ch (Armand Bottani)
Subject: INDO-EUROPEAN LINGUISTICS
Message-ID: Sender: usenet@news.unige.ch
Organization: Division of Medical Genetics, University of Geneva
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 11:28:31 GMT
Lines: 38
A friend of mine, who has spent part of his life doing field research and accumulated a HUGE body of data, has asked me to post the following for him, as he doesn't have access to Internet:
"COLLABORATOR WANTED for work on origins of Romance languages !
- if your avocation is the study of Indo-Europeans languages
- if you are OPEN TO NEW IDEAS
- if you are UNSATISFIED WITH ORTHODOX THEORIES on the identity of Celts and the origins of Romance languages then YOUR CAPACITIES AND MY RESEARCH = solid base to challenge the received ideas!!!
Please contact him, either by mail or phone, at the following:
Michel DESFAYES
Prevan
CH-1926 FULLY
Switerland
Phone (+41)-26-46 23 08
If desired, you can email me and I'll forward your message to my friend.
Armand BOTTANI
Armand Bottani, MD Division of Medical Genetics
9, Av. de Champel CH - 1211 Geneva 4, Switzerland
Tel. (+41) - 22 - 702 5709
Fax. (+41) - 22 - 702 5706
Email bottani@cmu.unige.ch
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Subject: Re: books on history of language?
In-Reply-To: damastro@unix.amherst.edu's message of 7 Mar 1995 11:05:34 -0500
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In article <3ji08e$6u2@amhux3.amherst.edu> damastro@unix.amherst.edu
(David A. Mastroianni) writes:
I've tried looking in my library recently for books on the development of language, but the books usually seem to be about the development of language ability in babies. I'm trying to find speculation on the development of language over the course of human development, ideas about how complex the earliest languages might have been, research on the ancestry of modern languages, you know? Can anyone recommend any good titles?
The reason that you have trouble finding books on the topic of the origin of language is that it is an area linguists have shied away from, for what seem good reasons:
Language arose long before any writing system, so that all writing systems show languages at essentially a modern stage of development with respect to original or "primitive" states of hominid development. It is now thought by many that language may have originated more than 200,000 years ago.
With no non-modern hominids to provide a check on hypotheses, any arguments set forth on the question of language origin will in essence be the beliefs of the author alone.
That said, two authors who have tackled the question are Derek Bickerton (who uses the term "protolanguage" in a way other than its definition in historical comparative linguistics, so beware confusion), and Morris Swadesh. They should be easy enough to find in a reasonable university library.
Unfortunately, I don't have ready to hand references to two papers which discussed some issues of early hominid language ability. One was by Hockett (and a second author whose name escapes me), discussing the opening of primate call systems into full language; the other was a discussion of Neandertal laryngeal anatomy, which concluded that Neandertals would not have been able to produce language like modern H. sap. This latter claim is discussed by Trinkhaus & Shipman in their book _The Neandertals_, with the conclusion that the reconstruction of the N. vocal tract proposed was incorrect.
Aside from that, you should pick up a book or two on historical linguistics, such as Bynon, or Jeffers & Lehiste, or Hock, or Anttila. (I found the second edition of the last very hard to read, but the first edition was quite usable.)
These will acquaint you with what we *can* do.
(NB: I did not say "all that we can do." That's a matter of controversy in the field. Take positive statements at face value; take negative statements with the proverbial grain.)
Rich Alderson [Tolkien quote temporarily removed in favour of alderson@netcom.com proselytizing comment below --rma]
Please support the creation of the humanities hierarchy of newsgroups!
From: a2319659@athena.rrz.uni-koeln.de (Eduard Friesen)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: CYRILLIC fonts sought
Date: 7 Mar 1995 15:01:50 GMT
Organization: Regional Computing Center, University of Cologne
Lines: 9
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Anyone know where cyrillic fonts may be obtained for Windows use? I know that something called ERARC, ERARI and ERKOI and so on exists, but haven't been able to track it down.
Response by e-mail much appreciated.
Eduard Friesen thanks you
a2319659@smail.rrz.uni-koeln.de
From: dd@djh.dk (David Dellinger)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Grammer question: "theoretical" vs "theoretically"
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 01:04:46 +0100
Organization: The Danish School of Journalism
Lines: 29
Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: d107.djh.dk
Hello!
My wife and I have been trying to figure out the following sentence from one of her english papers she's grading...
"... the theoretical maximum perfomance of the computer..." Some of her students say: "... the theoretically maximum performance of the computer..." Does anyone know which is grammatically correct? Hopefully with a reason behind the answer.
I rarely look at this newsgroup, so could you please respond via e-mail. Thanks in advance!
David & Marianne Dellinger
dd@djh.dk
Dellinger, Macintosh/Network Manager
The Danish School of Journalism voice: +45 8616 1122 Olof Palmes Alle 11 fax: +45 8616 8910 DK-8200 Aarhus N Internet: dd@djh.dk
DANMARKS JOURNALISTHOJSKOLE
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Subject: Re: PBS is at it again---so are the Linguists
In-Reply-To: philip@storcomp.demon.co.uk's message of Wed, 1 Mar 1995 22:49:32 +0000
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Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 02:12:10 GMT
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Sender: alderson@netcom20.netcom.com
In article <794098172snz@storcomp.demon.co.uk> philip@storcomp.demon.co.uk
(Phil Hunt) writes:
In article need@bloomfield.uchicago.edu"Barbara Need" writes:
There is good evidence that Old English was strongly Germanic to the end of the period (and you should read Thomason and Kaufamn (Language Contact, creolization and genetic lingustics) re the influence of Norse on English mostly negligible).
It was strong enough that some function-words in modern English come from Norse (eg "they").
But borrowing, even of "function words," does not a creole make.
English can be regarded as a creole based on OE and Norman French.
No, it can't. Read the book cited by Barbara Need for details.
Rich Alderson [Tolkien quote temporarily removed in favour of
alderson@netcom.com proselytizing comment below --rma]
Please support the creation of the humanities hierarchy of newsgroups!
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 04:58:27 GMT
Lines: 31
In article ,Fintan Costello wrote:I really think its too late for Irish to be returned to its place as the first language in Ireland. All that can be hoped for is that it survives as a languge of songs, poetry, history etc. I know that the poems in Irish that I read in school really moved me, a lot more than the english ones. Does anybody know of cases like this?
A language being used only in particular areas of thought, I mean?
Textbook case: Hebrew in the pre-Zionist days. Not only was it a sacred language, used for services and prayers (several languges can claim that distinction, like Coptic and Pali), but pretty much all medieval Jewish philosophy was written either in it or Aramic, even though it ceased to be the language of daily intercourse before the Diaspora.
Note that the success of the Hebrew revival doesn't give me much
hope for Irish. Their situations are really very different; I can't ever see the Irish finding the drive and energy necessary to restore Irish as Ireland's first language. Maybe if the English were to invade them again...
Thanks for pointing out the political reasons. I knew Irish was associated with Catholicism and nationalism, but I didn't know that those reasons were helping to turn youg people away from it.
Dohmnall
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff / Dilettanten
(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu) /__ erhebt Euch
/____ gegen die Kunst!
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Newsgroups: rec.travel.asia,rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,sci.lang
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Subject: JOBS IN JAPAN - 36K - NO EXPERIENCE REQUIRED
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From: donald@srd.bt.co.uk (Donald Fisk)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Cornish
Date: 3 Mar 1995 13:12:04 GMT
Organization: BT Labs, Martlesham Heath, Ipswich, UK
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Jacques Thu ry (75107.2170@CompuServe.COM) wrote:
Andre Shapps wrote:
I may be wrong, but i'm sure I distinctly remember that there were a few Cornish speakers left even in my lifetime. I recall a news item, probably in the 70's that spoke about the "only two remaining Cornish speakers". It must have been a lonely life!
Dolly Pentreath of Mousehole, dead in 1777, is widely believed to have been the last "real" Cornish speaker.
There seems to have been a few people able to speak some Cornish during the XIXth century, but by the end of the century, Cornish was entirely extinct, beyond any doubt.
I was told that the last native speaker was called John Nancarrow and that he died in 1820. This was told to me by a descendant of his. He was aware of Dolly Pentreath.
Revival efforts really started in the 1920's and there has been since a small quantity of people speaking Cornish.
There are articles regularly published in revived Cornish in
the Celtic League's magazine Carn.
I would like to mention an excellent booklet on Cornish: "The story of the Cornish language" by P. Berresford Ellis, TOR MARK Press, Truro, Cornwall. "Pysk, Sten ha Cober!"
At a guess, "Fish, Tin and Copper!" Jacques Thuery
Le Hibou (mo bheachd fhe/in:my own opinion) Email: donald@info.bt.co.uk
"Well, I have an English father and a Scottish mother. Which means I'm both stuck-up *and* mean." -- Angus Deayton
From: be404@yfn.ysu.edu (Adalbert Goertz)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: books 4sale
Date: 7 Mar 1995 22:33:52 GMT
Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <3jin0g$t7h@news.ysu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: yfn2.ysu.edu
Sale
Dr.Adalbert Goertz,12934 Buch.Trail E.,Waynesboro PA 17268-9329 USA.
Shipping extra.ph 717-762-7378 internet email: adalbert.goertz@bbs.serve.org
Allen,James T:The first Year of Greek,Macmillan, NY 1931,383pp.
5.00 Atlas:Shepherd,W.R.:Historical Atlas,xlibr NY
1956,340pp. 15.00
Baxter,A.:In search of your German Roots, Geneal.Publ.Co., Baltimore MD 1991,116pp. 8.00
Bible:Vetus testamentum graecum uxta septuaginta interpretes, Lipsiae cais-Dictionaire enimages, BI Duden-Verlag Mannheim 1962,400pp. 6.00 Society:Germany-Finding Aids to...German Collection Salt Lake City 1979,580pp. 20.00
Genealogical Society:Major Genealogical Record Sources in the Netherlands Salt Lake City 1968,4pp. 1.00
Kirkpatrick,F.A.:Latin America-a brief history, xlibr, NY 1939,456pp. 6.00
Knaplund,P.:The British Empire 1815-1939, Harper: NY-London 1941,850pp. 20.00
Knickerbocker,Diedrich:A history of New York,slightly disbound, NY 1864,528pp. 15.00
Pei,Mario:Language for everybody-what it is and how to master it MY 1956,340pp. 5.00
Probst,R.:Catalogue illustre des monnaies luxembourgeoises (984-1973) 1974 3.00
Robertson,W.:History of the reign of emperor Charles V,vol.1, NY 1804,328pp. 150.00
Rosenberger,H.T: The Enigma-how shall history be written? Waynesboro PA 1979,453pp. 12.00
Screvelius,Corn.:Lexicon Manuale Graeco-Latinum/Latino-Graecum,Leather,NY
1818 60.00
********************** Adalbert Goertz **************************
================== retired in Waynesboro PA =====================
Mennonite genealogy; insect studies; selling/trading nature books
Would someone trade my PA home for home in CO, NM, or AZ or ?????
From: djohns@grove.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: PBS is at it again---so are the Linguists
Date: 7 Mar 1995 23:00:08 GMT
Organization: University of Florida
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <3jioho$rpo@no-names.nerdc.ufl.edu>
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In article pete@swcp.com (Pete Humphrey) writes:Are you saying _any_ only modifies count nouns?
No, of course not. "Do you have any decent beer?" But it seems that many abstract mass nouns don't suffer division lightly. "Do chimpanzees have any language at all?" Hmmm. Maybe. I can even get a partitive meaning in "The domestication of the dog antedates any use of iron."
But can you really make sense of "As if any writing system could
antedate any language" where "language" means "language facility"? I can't.
David Johns
From: blukoff@u.washington.edu (Benjamin D Lukoff)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Top Graduate Schools?
Date: 7 Mar 1995 22:01:37 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 11
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References: <1995Mar2.115042.1@ug.eds.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein1.u.washington.edu
sandy@ug.eds.com (Wayne Sanders-Unrein) writes:
Is there a list of the top graduate schools for studying linguistics? Both US and abroad.
Thanks
Check the FAQ on soc.college.gradinfo.
BDL
From: Jacques Thu ry <75107.2170@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Scatology in spanish
Date: 7 Mar 1995 05:39:34 GMT
Organization: via CompuServe Information Service
Lines: 15
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I have gotten my message chopped off. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Of course, neither "mierda" nor "caca" are of Quechua origin, "guano" is.
What a shame for a neo-Latin speaker..."Bordel de merde, nom de Dieu!"
Jacques.
Jacques Thuery
From: ez012445@dale.ucdavis.edu (Adam Greene)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: fe/male speech in English??
Date: 5 Mar 1995 07:18:33 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis
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Joseph C Fineman (jcf@world.std.com) wrote:
One m-f difference in English that is part of folklore (jokes on the radio, etc.) is that women know more color words than men. I, for example, do not know what mauve & puce mean. But I suspect that this difference, even if real, is confined to some classes.
Joe Fineman jcf@world.std.com
239 Clinton Road (617) 731-9190
Brookline, MA 02146
I took a course called Language, Gender, and Society, which dealt with gender-based differences in communication. Though the focus was on English, it also looked at many other languages and cultures. Anyway, I found it interesting that on the day the professor was lecturing on vocabulary differences, she referred to the "salmon" hand-out. To most men, it would've no doubt been "orange". Even if men know what the color terms mean, they are less apt to use them. Some of this may stem from clothing/fashion...? That's where I notice the greatest number of these terms popping up.
As for other differences, English lacks many of the lexical or
grammatical dichotomies found in languages such as Japanese or, say, Guugu Yimidhirr. Most of the gender-based differences are related to the strategies of discourse (e.g. interruptions, tag questions, minimal responses, etc.). Men tend to interrupt a LOT more, and are pretty adept at the minimal response :). As for tag questions, it has been said that women use more of them (according to Lakoff, 1975) but other studies have shown that men actually use more (Dubois, 1975).
In the U.S., there is also a high premium placed on low voices for men - mimicking a man in a high pitch is one of the worst insults there is. Men will also restrict their vocal range...it is the variation in the English-speaking woman's pitch that marks it as feminine, not the absolute pitch level.
There are other differences, but they tend to be more restricted in their scope of applicability. (Socioeconomic status is a BIG factor)
Adam Greene "Evolution:
asgreene@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu Adapt, Migrate, or
asgreene@vnet.ibm.com Die."
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: rharmsen@knoware.nl (Ruud Harmsen)
Subject: Re: how many phonemes?
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In article <3jatog$8ll@amhux3.amherst.edu> damastro@news.amherst.edu (David A. Mastroianni) writes:
About how many phonemes does any individual language recognize? Is there a wide variation between languages?
Yes, there is wide variation. A problem is to agree upon what exactly are the separate phonemes in a given language. But that aside: Some European languages have rather a lot of phonemes, around 50, think of German, English, Dutch, Hungarian. Some others have fewer, like Spanish, Greek, etc. I believe Hawaiian has very few, around 20?
I think there is a tendency that languages with few phonemes are spoken faster (or make that impression to non-native speakers?), apparent if you compare English and Spanish, and understandable if you realize that to convey the same amount of info with fewer symbols, you need more symbols per second.
From: Jacques Thu ry <75107.2170@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: "Je t'aime" en Breton??? SVP aidez-moi!
Date: 7 Mar 1995 23:29:27 GMT
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References: Je t'aime = Me a gar ac'hanoc'h where c'h is the same sound as ch in German, Scottish, J in Spanish.
Gwelloc'h gourc'hemennou, Jacques Thuery, Palo Alto, CA
Jacques Thuery
From: jon@babel.ifl.uib.no (Jon Hareide Aarbakke)
Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.politics.ec,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: EU and Esperanto
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 13:06:11 +0100
Organization: Institutt for fonetikk og lingvistikk
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To Jon Livesey and so forth:
It seems to me that there is one simple and quite convincing argument in favour of adopting Esperanto - or some other artificial language - as the administrative/debate language, the lingua franca of the EU. The argument is split :
a) Vast sums of money may be saved by sacking tons of interpreters and using ONE language, whereupon we may translate FROM the lingua franca to the national languages.
b) The lingua franca may not be an existing national language, because it would be impossible to agree on one.
To start with, we could go half the way: All documents are in the lingua franca, and all interpreting is done INTO this language, hence: everyone must understand this language (spoken), and technical scribes must master its written form.
Thus, in a (boring and irrelevant) debate in the EU-parliament, everyone will speak their own sacred languages, and all the others will hear the lingua franca.
In the long run, maybe everyone will speak the lingua franca.
Esperanto is a good candidate for the job of lingua franca. If not, we can make another one. After all, there are tons of linguists sitting around.
We could even make it abide by all the island constraints and subjacency whatevers we could wish. We could call it the UL, the Universal Language!
A whole new world opens up before etc.
But seriously, wouldn't it be the sensible thing to do ?
Finally, I've heard (seen) some people claim that native speakers of English are not at an unfair advantage at international whatsits.
That's one rubbish claim if I ever heard one.
Thank you, and good luck with your flaming wars.
Jon
Jon Hareide Aarbakke
University of Bergen, Insitute of Phonetics and Linguistics
"You hold an opinion until you discard it and replace it with another"
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Subject: Re: One point against Esperanto
Message-ID: Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK
References: <3jcl4d$kqe@news.nd.edu>Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 22:14:10 GMT
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In article <3jcl4d$kqe@news.nd.edu> scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu (scharle) writes:
If I were to invent a language that was to be easy to learn, I'd think of restricting the syllables as narrowly as this: initials k l m n s t 0, medials a ai/e au/o i u, and finals n 0.
Why not simply adopt Hawai`ian as an auxiliary language for international communication (getting rid of the _s_ also)?
Scott, may I count your vote in favour of the motion?
Aloha, "Na, na ... ah mean, *no wey*, wi aw due respect, ma lady," stammers Joe.'
Ivan A Derzhanski (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) (J Stuart, _Auld Testament Tales_) * Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK
* Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: jcf@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman)
Subject: Can a nonlinguistic entity be part of a sentence?
Message-ID: Summary: A grammatical usage of signs & labels
Keywords: semantics, signs, syntax
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 22:53:54 GMT
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If I attach a label HANDLE WITH CARE to a package, is the package itself the object of the transitive verb "handle"? Or is the verb being used in a pregnant sense?
If the latter, then what about the sign DO NOT LEAN AGAINST on the wall of a trolley-car vestibule? Can a wall be the object of a preposition? Can a preposition be pregnant?
Joe Fineman jcf@world.std.com
239 Clinton Road (617) 731-9190
Brookline, MA 02146
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: kriha_p@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J. Kriha)
Subject: Re: Keyboard symbols: @, $, etc.
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Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:32:44 GMT
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tim@kuc01.kuniv.edu.kw wrote:
I know that this is a lot to ask, but could anyone posting material on origins, foreign names, and colloquial names for keyboard symbols (@, $,etc.) also e-mail their posts to me? I've only lately discovered that the dime-store system they have set up for us in Kuwait doesn't carry all postings to this newsgroup (and the ones not carried must be random; certainly no one here is screening them).
Anyhow, I'd appreciate it very much.
Tim Scott
tim@kuc01.kuniv.edu.kw
Also all posters should check the keyword in the Distribution field. It should say 'world'. If it doesn't then the posts don't make outside posters' countries.
Paul JK
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: jcf@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman)
Subject: Re: "Chier" and "shit"
Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
References: <793753349snz@storcomp.demon.co.uk> <3iuf62$4is$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> <3j9tot$h7k_004@actrix.gen.nz> <3jebkl$hh1@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 22:22:37 GMT
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It may be worth noting, while we are on this subject, that the French term of abuse "chienlit", which De Gaulle notoriously applied to rioting students in the '60s, comes from "chier" (& _not_ "chien" = dog). It means "shitabed".
Joe Fineman jcf@world.std.com
239 Clinton Road (617) 731-9190
Brookline, MA 02146
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Path: From: v187ef4y@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Patrick J Crowe)
Subject: Re: original Indo-European words
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In article , fgao@interaccess.com (ab113) writes...
If I recall correctly, linguists have possibly identified where proto-IE was spoken by the appearance of several geographically words in most Indo-European languages. Without getting into too much detail, I think one of these is a words for salmon, which we carry down into English as "lox". Another is a word for "birch". From these clues, linguists can make a reasonable guess as to where proto-IE was spoken.
My question is, what are some of the other words that fall into this list?
Check out the American Heritage Dictionary; there's an appendix dealing with the reconstruction of PIE. An easy-to-read, easy-to-find source.
-Pat Crowe, SUNY at Buffalo
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Subject: Re: duplication?
In-Reply-To: Bruce McMenomy's message of 3 Mar 1995 17:46:45 GMT
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In article <3j7km5$knr@news.halcyon.com> Bruce McMenomy writes:
Latin uses reduplication (if this is what you are referring to) to mark the perfect stem sometimes: curro (run) -> cucurri; peperci; etc. The feature seems archaic: Old Latin gives an example from "facio" (to make) that would have been "fecit" in Classical Latin: an inscription on a sword or something (I can't remember quite what) reads:
MANIOS NUMASIOI MED FEFAKHED
which is equiv. to CL
Man[l?]ius Numerio me fecit i.e.,
Man[l]ius made me for Numerius
"Manius" is correct.
However, I was under the impression that the Praenestine Fibula on which this inscription is found had finally been demonstrated to be a forgery.
In any case, it is simply a matter of the Classical Latin perfect comprising old perfects, aorists, and a couple of formations found nowhere outside of Latin--not unlike the English past tense.
The perfect as reconstructed for Proto-Indo-European involved reduplication and o-grade vocalism of the root.
Rich Alderson [Tolkien quote temporarily removed in favour of alderson@netcom.com proselytizing comment below --rma]
Please support the creation of the humanities hierarchy of newsgroups!
From: JAREA@ukcc.uky.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Dialect and language
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 95 17:05:59 EST
Organization: The University of Kentucky
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In article <3ikskk$rej@ilex.fernuni-hagen.de>
Christian.Bruecker@FernUni-Hagen.de (Christian Bruecker) writes:
-----material re Swiss German snipped out-----
It would probably be possible, but the consequence were that nearly NOBODY would be a native speaker of German, or that most Germans would live in a diglossia situation themselves.
There are too much german dialects INSIDE Germany which are completely ununderstandable to Germans from another region.
I had a professor who quoted anothr professor (that's academe for you) to the effect that, "German is a language spoken natively by no-one, in which the negative is /nic,t/" (shove that cedilla back under the 'c'"
Chris
Ki semenat ispinaza, non andet iskultsu!
J. A. Rea jarea@ukcc.uky.edu
From: perotean@aol.com (Perotean)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: PBS is at it again---so are the Linguists
Date: 3 Mar 1995 14:25:33 -0500
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In writing the foregoing post, I got a bit carried away with
wool-gathering. Would you good folks permit a bit of stray
streamofconsciousness pertinent to language and cognition???
1950 roughly demarcates a vast thrust into the artificial due to two main
events: 1. WWII
produced an enormous surge in synthetic materials which were generously spawned on the postwar economy in every form and type of product---including children's toys; and 2. television, which both provided an unprecedented marketing tool for many of these products, and proliferated the still relatively new cinematic medium which in effect tv brought into the home. For just one tiny example of oodles that could be given, very little merchandising of Mickey Mouse had taken place until The Mousketeers appeared on TV in '49 or '50. Apart from the increasingly ubiquitous stuffed teddy bear, Mickey Mouse, Felix the Cat, and a few other cinematic cartoon characters had been virtually the only fantasy animals to which the typical pre-l950 child had been exposed, and then only on rare occasions---at the movies.
The net result in scarcely a handful of decades has been synergistic, to put it mildly. Children stopped growing up in a natural realm in which relatively few and relatively plain human accoutrements formed merely the backdrop of their lives, and began to be "imprinted" with an enormous range and diversity of brightly colored fantasms (sic): Duckies and Lambies and Birdies . . . none of which resemble real objects in any of the sensory ways upon which natural perception and cognition has been predicated for literally millions of consecutive years and generations since warmbloods emerged.
The ramifications upon human cognition are virtually infinite, many having been pointed out in disparate, and discrete, contexts (e.g, milk originates in plastic cartons), but one effect that has not been pointed out is the very way in which humans---all warmblooded animals, but especially humans---form the fundamental concepts of life that are literally *vital* to life (at least in a reasonably natural world; who knows if we will be able to survive in a wholly artificial realm). There are so many and diverse sensory data picked up by a child from just one real, say, dog, which data permute with different and similar data sensed from one other dog---not to mention many different dogs and the same dogs over time, and from one and many cats, etc. over time---far more data than could ever be put into any language. Yet, such ineffable sensory data, plus those from such as playing many days for many years around diverse water bodies, forests, fields, etc., pulling wings off butterflies, and so on, presents the
brain with raw sensory data that gradually gets accommodated into unconscious perceptions and concept roots that ultimately (or at least potentially) lead to fundamental grasps of how the planet and its surrounds and contents were all put together and how they "go together.".
Collectively, the net result of such an abundance and diversity of natural sensory input has conventionally been called "common sense."
Natural languages are based on this "common sense." They are not, and never were, based on cuneiform, glyphs, runes, or the alphabet. The reading of books, formerly limited to a relatively small proportion of the species, was nonetheless based *on this natural sensory experience,* and on the unconsious, more than at the conscious, level of referent perception and concept formation.
Television preempted the spread of literacy, in part by obviating the need for or understanding of books (except in dullsville school) , but also in large part by REPLACING NATURAL COGNITIVE DEVELOPMENT with a dizzying, if highly entertaining, array of fantasmic referents. Of course, television writers and speakers also decimated language, at least American English, providing for many viewers and for one another a flawed model of (natural)
language.
Today, language---at least American English---contains a decreasing content of "common sense"; one hears this, one reads it---and one erceives it in human behavior (which, like language, is a code for cognitive expression).
Now linguists largely study "living" language in its most severe
pathelogical state, and other languages from the conditioned mental set thereof. Nobody's *fault,* . . . but it is worth being aware of. If Chomsky, for example, had this encompassing vista of the *cognitive* basis of language, he would never have come up with some of his ideas. The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis "stands Truth on her head"; that is, it seems to be exactly upside down.
Sorry if I got carried away.
From: Bruce McMenomy Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Opposite of Diminutive
Date: 3 Mar 1995 17:39:26 GMT
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.
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hughett@heifer.lbl.gov (Paul Hughett) wrote:
(There are probably other augmenting and diminutizing affixes, but those are the ones that come immediately to mind.)
The augmenting ones do seem to be less formal and entrenched in English than the diminutives. We also tend to adopt the Gk. "hyper" (cognate to Lat. super): hyperspace, hyperactive, etc.; and such things as "mega" and "magnus" (Gk. and Lat. "big", resp.) -- "megabucks" "megabytes" (which has become interesting quantified at a particular level). "Magnus" seems more to have been used formerly than now: legacy words incl. "Charlemagne" (Newsgroups: sci.langFrom: kriha_p@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J. Kriha)
Subject: Re: Phonetic Font - where?
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In article <3itdn9$2kt@ruby.ucc.nau.edu>,
jnt@dana.ucc.nau.edu (Jeffrey N. Torp) wrote:
I hope I am posting to the correct group - no flames please - but I couldn't find a more applicable group to ask this question of... Anyway to the point -- I am a SLP student and am interested in obtaining a phonetics font so when I write papers I don't need to go back and handwrite in the symbols myself.. Did find an FTP site with such software, but was for the MAC - I have an IBM. Where can I get such a font package? TIA --- E-mail preferred.
Jeff T.
Try: ftp.sil.org
From: Bruce McMenomy Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.politics.ec
Subject: Re: Nit-picking
Date: 9 Mar 1995 07:42:44 GMT
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Xref: venere.inet.it sci.lang:4323 alt.politics.ec:1917
Paul Sampson wrote:stevemac@bud.indirect.com (Stefano MacGregor) wrote:
... Just as statements in the future tense in English can be translated into Japanese, but that does not create a future tense in Japanese.
English has a future tense?
No, but it will.
From: stanesp@panix.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.french,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.esperanto,sci.lang,alt.politics.eu,alt.politics.ec
Subject: Re: ESPERANTO, my ass
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 95 10:29:03 PDT
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In article <3jq993$93t@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, <123@somewhere.there> writes:
From: 123@somewhere.there
Newsgroups:
soc.culture.french,alt.politics.ec,alt.politics.eu,sci.lang,soc.culture.esperanto,soc.cul
ture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: ESPERANTO, my ass
Date: 10 Mar 1995 19:28:35 GMT
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In article <3jq7ep$qb2@pilot.njin.net> fineber@pilot.njin.net (Allan Fineberg) writes:
Mi estas Esperantisto char mi deziras renkonti aliajn personojn (ekster mia propra lingvo-komunumo) sur neutrala fundamento, lingve kaj kulture. Nur Esperanto permesas al mi stari en tiu meza vojo inter mia lingvo-grupo kaj aliaj lingvo-grupoj.
Will you guys cut the crap with that stupid Esperanto language? There are more people who speak and understand Mao-Mao than...Esperanto (it sounds like only granola types will ever take their time to learn it).
Like it or not, Englis is and should be THE global language. Even though I don't like it myself, I accept it since she is the most spoken language globaly, and probably one of the easiest languages to learn.
So stop the bubbling and focus your energy into solving more important world (or EC) problems like starvation, overpopulation, pollution, destruction of other species, war, etc.
Esperanto, my ass!
BINGO! I knew it. One of the most typical stereotypes of Americans is that they , when it comes to languages, are UGLY! I mean, c'mon, man -- open yuor mind (hey, it will hurt) there are other people on this planet!!! And they DO speak another language ! And they don't give a damn about YOUR language --
WWould you mind to keep your ass elsewhere?
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: kriha_p@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J. Kriha)
Subject: Re: duplication?
Message-ID: <3jmuu3$jn0_001@actrix.gen.nz>
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In article , stevemac@bud.indirect.com (Pascal MacProgrammer) wrote:
Not so very long ago, Jardar Eggesboe Abrahamsen said...>Norwegian: daglegdags (dag-leg-dag-s = day-ly-day-ly = 'with the quality of happening every day'). The German equivalent is tagtaeglich.
Which reminds me of
Czech: "denodenne^" = every day / day by day
But I can't think of a single word equivalent for 'every week' or 'every year'. For example, every year is "rok od roku" or "rok za rokem".
Do any E. languages with duplicated expression for 'every day' have any similar constructs made from other nouns?
Year by year, town by town, etc. ?
Paul JK
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
From: kriha_p@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J. Kriha)
Subject: Re: *tic* as a verb.
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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:19:33 GMT
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In article <3jk68i$mjs@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Altertum@ix.netcom.com (Altertum) wrote:
In <3jb6du$72r@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> mloMark@ix.netcom.com (Mark Odegard) writes:
Merriam-Webster's 10th Collegiate Dictionary lists only as a noun.Is this anomaly exclusively M-W's?
I'm sure that someone will have something to say about it being an "anomaly" in the MW, but FYI, the Cassell, which is Brit., does not list "tic" as anything other than a noun.
The same in Collins E.D.
What would the verb "tic" mean, anyway?
Paul JK
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: Scatology in spanish
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References: <3jbfvm$5cs@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 01:19:55 GMT
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In article ,Daniel M. German wrote:"Guano" is the excrement of sea birds, common in some islands of Peru and Chile. "Caca" is any excrement.
*Just* bird excrement? I've come across the expression "bat guano" more than once in English (usually in spelunking literature). Is this a broadening of the term?
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff / Dilettanten
(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu) /__ erhebt Euch
/____ gegen die Kunst!
From: andernac@cs.utwente.nl (Toine Andernach)
Newsgroups: sci.lang,utwente.announce,inf.announce,inf.seti.parlevink
Subject: Workshop on Corpus-Based Approaches to Dialogue Modelling
Date: 9 Mar 1995 12:49:07 GMT
Organization: University of Twente, Dept. of Computer Science
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Distribution: world
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Twente Workshop on Language Technology
Corpus-Based Approaches to Dialogue Modelling
June 9, 1995
Preliminary Announcement
On June 9, the ninth international Twente Workshop on Language Technology (TWLT 9) will take place at the University of Twente, Enschede, the Netherlands. This time, the workshop will be devoted to approaches which emphasize the use of empirical data as a basis for dialogue modelling.
Special attention will be paid to the exploitation of man-man and (simulated) man-machine dialogues for the design of (spoken) dialogue models and systems.
Among the invited speakers are researchers from NLP-Lab (Linkoping), DFKI (Saarbrueken), HCRC (Edinburgh), Vocalis Ltd (Cambridge, UK), Loughborough University of Technology (Loughborough), Centre for Cognitive Science (Roskilde), Philips (Aachen), Oregon Graduate Institute of Science & Technology (Portland), ITK (Tilburg) and UT (Enschede).
More detailed information about the programme will be available in March at URL http://hydra.cs.utwente.nl/~stan/twlt9/ and proceedings will be available at the workshop.
Topics
The workshop will be organized around the following subjects
* corpus based methods as applied to dialogue modelling
* methods for evaluating implemented dialogue models
* dialogue formalisms, speech acts, dialogue grammars
* intention based approaches to dialogue modelling
* tools and methods to obtain and process dialogues
* multimodal dialogues
Organization
TWLT9 is organized by the PARLEVINK-project of the University of Twente in cooperation with IPO and KPN Research.
Toine Andernach, University of Twente
email: andernac@cs.utwente.nl; fax: +31 53 315283
Stan P. van de Burgt, KPN Research
email: S.P.vandeBurgt@research.ptt.nl; fax: +31 70 3326477
Gerrit van der Hoeven, University of Twente and Institute for Perception
Research/Philips Research
email: vdhoeven@prl.philips.nl
Registration fees
Regular registration fee: DFL 75.-
Students registration fee: DFL 40.-
This includes a lunch, coffee and proceedings.
Registration fee is to be paid on site.
Please register well in advance and no later than May 15.
The number of participants is limited to 50.
Conference Site
The workshop will take place in the "Demozaal" in building L of the Informatica-complex at the campus of the University of Twente, Enschede, The Netherlands.
Enschede is located in the east of the Netherlands. There is a direct connection between Schiphol Airport and Enschede by train which leaves every 30 minutes.
The campus can be reached by car (follow the route to 'Universiteit') and
by bus from Hengelo station (nr. 15 or 51) or from Enschede station (nr. 1 or 51). The workshop is a 10 minutes walk from the campus entrance.
Follow the red signs reading "TWLT".
Information
For more information on the workshop, please contact the organizers. For other information and accomodation, please contact: TWLT secretariat
University of Twente
Department of Computer Science
P.O. Box 217
7500 AE Enschede
The Netherlands
tel: +31 53 893680
fax: +31 53 315283
email: twlt@cs.utwente.nl
Registration
For registration, you can either contact the workshop secretariat or fill out the form on URL http://hydra.cs.utwente.nl/~stan/twlt9/
Toine Andernach Department of Computer Science P.O. Box 217
phone: +31 53 893789 University of Twente 7500 AE Enschede
fax: +31 53 315283 email: andernac@cs.utwente.nl The Netherlands
URL: http://www.cs.utwente.nl/~andernac
From: Jennifer Paxton Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.native,soc.culture.native
Subject: Re: Anybody Have Waldman's "Word Dance" Book?
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:20:57 -0800
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Xref: venere.inet.it sci.lang:4329 alt.native:2978 soc.culture.native:2326
On Fri, 3 Mar 1995, Mike Blackwell wrote:
As regular readers of sci.lang will attest, I'm translating the word "horse" into various foreign languages. I found out about a book called "Word Dance: The Language of Native American Culture" and thought it might be able to help. For the limited scope of my project, I don't need the whole book, so if anyone out there has access to a copy, could you e-mail me any "horse" translations it contains? TIA! Well, Horse in Cherokee is so-qui-li pronounced sew-key-lee, I think :) It means he-carries-heavy-things, or burden-bearer if you prefer the short form :)
Good luck
Jen Raven
Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.politics.ec
From: stevemac@bud.indirect.com (Stefano MacGregor)
Subject: Nit-picking
Message-ID: Sender: usenet@indirect.com (Internet Direct Admin)
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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:28:23 GMT
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Xref: venere.inet.it sci.lang:4330 alt.politics.ec:1934
stevemac@bud.indirect.com (Stefano MacGregor) wrote:
... Just as statements in the future tense in English can be translated into Japanese, but that does not create a future tense in Japanese.
Lastatempe skribis Paul Sampson jene: English has a future tense.Yes, we know. Japanese, however, does not.
Stefano MAC:GREGOR Mi dankas al miaj bons`ancigaj (s-ro) ma-GREG-r steloj, ke mi ne estas Fenikso, Arizono, Usono superstic`ulo.
From: bhelm@cs.uoregon.edu (B. Robert Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto,sci.lang
Subject: Re: One point against Esperanto
Followup-To: soc.culture.esperanto
Date: 10 Mar 1995 00:11:24 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon Computer and Information Sciences Dept.
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References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blackrabbit.cs.uoregon.eduSummary: Inflection is easy and fun!
Keywords: esperanto inflection difficulty learning
Xref: venere.inet.it soc.culture.esperanto:3405 sci.lang:4331
[Note followup line]
In article Marko Rauhamaa But inflections are not difficult toSed fleksiojn ne estas malfacile use.
You can learn them quickly and
uzi. Oni povas lerni ilin rapide,
they come out automatically.
kaj ili elparoligxas auxtomate.
I don't doubt that you and most
Mi ne dubas, ke vi, kaj multaj
others can learn them quickly. Not
aliaj, povas lerni ilin rapide.
me, despite two years of trying. What
Mi ne, malgraux dujara klopodo. Tio,
comes out (spoken and typed) automat-kio elparoligxas (kaj elklavarigxas) ically is errors with the accusative
auxtomate miaparte estas fusxoj priand adjectival concord. I apparently
la akuzativo kaj adjektiva akordo.
am not alone; Waringhien notes
Mi lauxdire ne estas sola; Waringhien
(reporting on a doctoral thesis that
rimarkas (raportante pri doktora tezo,
studied errors in Esperanto
kiu esploris erarojn en esperantlingvaj
correspondence) that these are typical
korespondajxoj), ke tiuj estas tipaj
errors of "ordinaraj esperantistoj"
eraroj de "ordinaraj esperantistoj"
(and not just of English-speaking
(kaj ne nur de anglalingvaj).
ones).
If English
Se oni uzu la
were to be used as an example for
anglan kiel modelon por esperanto,
Esperanto, the grammar books would la gramatiklibroj devus trakti la
> have to deal with the allowed word permesatajn vortordojn kaj iliajn
> orders and their meanings. signifojn.
Grammar books in Esperanto _must_ La gramatiklibroj esperantaj _devas_
deal with the allowed word orders trakti la permesatajn vortordojn kaj
and their meanings. You and others iliajn signifojn. Vi kaj aliaj
have shown that there is a usual montris, ke estas kutima esperantlingva
Esperanto word order, and unusual vortordo, kaj malkutimaj ordoj
orders change the emphasis and the sxangxas la emfazon kaj praktika efekto
practical effect of a sentence. de frazo. Se oni elektas sian
If one chooses one's word order vortordon hazarde, oni pli versxajne
randomly, one is more likely to make komprenigxas esperantlingve ol
oneself understood in Esperanto than anglalingve. Oni ne pli versxajne
in English. One is not more akceptigxas kiel flua parolanto.
likely to make oneself accepted as a
fluent speaker.
> And I Kaj mi dubas, ke ilin
> doubt they [word orders] would be estus tiel facile sistemigi kiel
> as easy to systematize as inflections fleksiojn.
> are.
Could be. What interests me is the Povas esti. Al mi pli interesas la
question, "Which kind of rule is demando, "Kiun regulspecon lernas
easier to learn, systematic or not?" plenkreskuloj pli facile, sistema
I doubt whether either aux ne?" Mi dubas, cxu aux
interlinguistic or language learning interlingvistikaj aux lingvalernadoj
research has answered that question. esploroj jam respondis tiun demandon.
But there are reasons to doubt your Tamen estas kialoj dubi viajn dubojn.
doubts. For example, when adults Ekzemple, tiam, kiam necesas al
have to create bridge languages for plenkreskuloj krei inter si pontlingvon
themselves ("pidgins") the resulting ("pidgxinon"), la rezultaj lingvoj
languages and their descendants kaj siaj idoj ("kreoloj") treege ofte
("creoles") very often have much havas multe pli facilajn fleksiajn
simpler systems of inflection than sistemojn ol la denaskaj lingvoj de la
the first languages of the pidgin pidgxin-parolantoj. Ne senpere sekvas,
speakers. It doesn't immediately ke oni pli facile lernas vortordajn
follow that word order rules are regulojn ol fleksiojn; eble ampleksa
easier to learn than inflections; fleksia sistemo simple ne eblas en
maybe an extensive inflectional pidgxinoj pro alia kialo (sonsistemaj
system in pidgins is not possible limoj, ekz.) Tamen indas sin demandi,
for another reason (limitations of kial Esperanto tiom malsimilas
the sound systems, for example). "nature kreskitaj interlingvoj".
Nevertheless, it's worth asking why
Esperanto is so different from
"naturally occuring interlinguas".
> Of course, one could keep the free Kompreneble oni povus pluteni la
> word order and still get rid of the liberan vortordon kaj tamen liberigi
> inflections by replacing them with sin de fleksioj tiel, ke oni
> appropriate particles. However, the anstatauxas ilin per konvenaj
> language would become a bit partikuloj. Sed la lingvo farigxus
> lengthier without any extra benefit. iom pli longeca sen ia ekstra
> profito.
Who knows how much benefit you'd get? Kiu scias, kiom oni profitus? Tiajn
Nobody does those kind of studies. studojn oni neniam faras. Eble lingvo,
Maybe a language that consistently kiu konsekvence uzas samspecan kazo-
uses the same kind of case marker indikilon (cxu la japana? la suoma?)
(Japanese? Finnish?) is, _ceteris estas, cxion alian egalan, pli facile
paribus_, easier to learn for adults. lernita de plenkreskuloj. Kompreneble,
Of course, it would be hard to invent elpensi eksperimenton, kiu fakte tenas
an experiment which actually keeps cxion alian egalan estus malfacile, kaj
_ceteris paribus_, and the results la rezultoj de tia eksperimento estus
of such experiments would be probably supozeble neinteresa al lingvistoj.
uninteresting to linguists.
More importantly, such results would Plej grave, tiaj rezultoj havus
have little practical value. Despite malmultan praktikan valoron. Malgraux
the problems of Esperanto, it appears la problemoj de Esperanto, sxajnas, ke
that no other language will function neniu alia lingvo funkcios praktike
practically as a politically neutral kiel politike neuxtrala pontlingvo,
bridge language, at almenaux dum mia vivodauxro. Espereble
least during my lifetime. Hopefully mi lernos paroli Esperanton per cxiu
I will learn to speak Esperanto with "n" kaj "j" surplace, antaux tiu
every "n" and "j" in place before vivodauxro finigxos :-)
that lifetime ends :-)
Rob
Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.usage.english
From: stevens@galileo.pss.fit.edu (Luke Stevens)
Subject: Re: "gay" (was: Re: Gay Teenagers)
Message-ID: Followup-To: sci.lang,alt.usage.english
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References: <794198935snz@storcomp.demon.co.uk> <9503071227281404@election.demon.co.uk> <794599902snz@storcomp.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 18:03:36 GMT
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Phil Hunt (philip@storcomp.demon.co.uk) wrote:
In article <9503071227281404@election.demon.co.uk> david@election.demon.co.uk "David Boothroyd" writes:
Wrong. One of the main attributes of English is that a word can be used in several grammar classes. So it is very common for an adjective to be used as a noun, a noun as an adjective or verb, and a verb as a noun. So it's perfectly OK grammatically to use "gay" as a noun; as is evident by the fact that most people, when they hear such usages, don't think there is something off about the grammar.
It is not technically correct. Gay is an adjective and the fact that some people use it as a noun is irrelevant to this.
Whether people use a word as a noun is irrelevant to whether it is a noun?
Do you also think it's irrelevant that my dictionary says "gay" is a noun?
Call me a Latin-loving prescriptivist if you like , but it seems natural that adjectives be used as nouns through the use of substantives. Latin does this freely, and most Latin adjectives are also used as nouns in English.English has a well established precedent for using substantives. The great peculiarity of English is that it tends not to have substantives in the singular. We have no objection to "Blessed are the poor," or "Kill the strong and capture the weak," but it sounds bizarre and incorrect to say "I saw a happy." It is not even necessary for dictionaries to make separate indication of the noun use of most adjectives because of this rule of substantives. To say "I saw a happy," instead of "I saw a happy person," seems logical, but it's just one of those annoying little quirks of the language that such a construction simply isn't done. Along the same lines, "I met a gay," should be a logical substitute for "I met a gay person," and if such can be said without resulting in puzzlement it is preferable .Besides which and more importantly, gay men do not generally like people to use gay as a noun.
That's a more valid reason IMO for not using it as such.
I wonder why, though? Possibly for the same reason (whatever that is) that people prefere being called "Jewish" to being called "a Jew".
Probably because we are so used to using adjectives as mere modifiers often to be used in long lists, as "the short, fat, comical, friendly dentist", but a noun is more often used alone as a complete identification of something, as "a television". When a person is referred to with a noun, he is placed in a group of all such things, i.e. a stereotype. Few people like to be stereotyped (except those egregiously worse than the group, but I'll not name names). OTOH, when an adjective is employed, it serves only as a description rather than identification, so the sterotype tendency is much weaker.
I like to use correct constructions that annoy others just for the sake of the opportunity to correct their understanding of English. If a feminist gets mad at me for calling her "he", "freshman", or "chairman", I know that I have centuries of precedent and agreement of experts on my side and can defend my usage better than she can defend her objection to it.
Luke J. Stevens ------- stevens@pss.fit.edu -------
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool
-- Abraham Lincoln
From: maeviaro@cat.cce.usp.br (Mario Eduardo Viaro)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Thai fonts
Date: 8 Mar 1995 16:15:11 GMT
Organization: Universidade de Sao Paulo / Brasil
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Does anyone know where I can get some TTF-Thai fonts (Word for Windows?) I have some texts in that language and I don't want to transcribe them.
Thanks
maeviaro@cat.cce.usp.br
From: JAREA@ukcc.uky.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.politics.ec,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: EU and Esperanto
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 95 17:04:36 EST
Organization: The University of Kentucky
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Xref: venere.inet.it sci.lang:4334 alt.politics.ec:1947 soc.culture.europe:3200 soc.culture.esperanto:3406
In article jon@babel.ifl.uib.no (Jon Hareide Aarbakke) writes:
Esperanto is a good candidate for the job of lingua franca. If not, we can make another one. After all, there are tons of linguists sitting around.
We could even make it abide by all the island constraints and subjacency whatevers we could wish. We could call it the UL, the Universal Language!
A whole new world opens up before etc.
Please don't even think of it! We linguists are having enough problems coping with the languages we already have without dreaming up new ones!!
Au Nic,ois qui Mali panse!
From: veklerov@spindle.ee.lbl.gov (Eugene Veklerov)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Russian accusative with infinitive
Date: 10 Mar 1995 19:44:05 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory
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In article cto@olicom.olicom.dk (Claus Toendering) writes:Does Russian have an equivalent of the English accusative with infinitive?
In other words, can you translate "I heard him sing" thus: "Ya slyshal yego pet'"?
No, and it took me a lot of time to get used to English phrases, such as "I heard him sing". The best Russian translation I can come up with is "Ya slyshal kak on pel". Translated back into English, it is "I heard how he sang".
Eugene Veklerov
Newsgroups: sci.lang,soc,culture.turkish
From: hubey@pegasus.montclair.edu (H. M. Hubey)
Subject: Re: Turkish and other Altaic languages
Message-ID: Sender: root@argos.montclair.edu (Operator)
Organization: SCInet @ Montclair State
References: <3j0k86$q4j@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 22:36:00 GMT
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aeulenbe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Alex Eulenberg) writes:
In rharmsen@knoware.nl (Ruud Harmsen) writes:Can anyone explain about Turkish and other Altaic languages, like those in Turkmenistan, Kazachstan, Azerbaidjan, Uzbekistan, etc.?
>EXTERNAL RELATIONS: While all the languages you refer to (Turkish, Turkmen, Kazakh, Azeri, Uzbek) are members of the Altaic family, they also are all members of the Turkic subgroup. Non-Turkic Altaic languages include Mongolian and some languages of Siberia (called Tungus). Some people class Korean and Japanese as Altaic languages; this is still a matter of debate among linguists.
INTERNAL RELATIONS: Azeri is mutually intelligible with Turkish. In fact, Turks and Azeris consider themselves to be of the same nation, just under different states. Kazakh and Uzbek are also very close.
Are you sure about this? Uzbek might be closer to Turkmen than Kazakh. And Kazakh might be closer to Kirghiz than Uzbek.
There are some dialects of Kazakh that are very close to some dialects of Uzbek; Do you mean Uzbeks living in Kazakhstan?
The Kazakhstan dialects are the most "Turkic" of the Turkic languages, meaning they have the fewest borrowings from Arabic and Persian, and retain a lot of the Proto-Turkic phonology, such as full vowel harmony and back consonants (q, gh, ng).
Doesn't Uzbek have a lot of Farsi in it?
Regards, Mark
hubey@amiga.montclair.edu
From: eassong@yorku.ca (Gord Easson)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Nit-picking
Followup-To: sci.lang,alt.politics.ec
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 20:44:11 -0500
Organization: York University
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In article , iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) wrote:In article <3jo1sa$158@news.globalx.com> davison@globalx.net (Rod Davison) writes:
In article <3jjriu$lm@marble.Britain.EU.net>, Paul Sampson says:English has a future tense?
If it doesn't now, it will have.
Very witty indeed, but off the point. I'm under the impression that most linguists who have done research on English (or, more generally, Germanic) tense have regarded the so-called future as a modal rather than a temporal category. So I don't know about alt.politics.ec, but on sci.lang it is perfectly justified to question the existence of a future tense in English.
`"Na, na ... ah mean, *no wey*, wi aw due respect, ma lady," stammers Joe.'
Ivan A Derzhanski (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) (J Stuart, _Auld Testament Tales_) * Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK * Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK Let me throw my support in here. As far as I know, it is generally accepted that English has two tenses of which future is NOT one. Of all the possible names for them, I think I would go for Past and Non-past (someone mentioned this terminology earlier in the thread).
Gord Easson
LDP
York University
Toronto, Canada
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: mdavies@ilstu.edu (Mark Davies)
Subject: Scannable edition of Wycliffe's Middle English Bible
Sender: news@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (News Admin.)
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Is anyone aware of a scannable (i.e. has good type) edition of Wycliffe's Middle English Bible? The only section I really need is the book of Luke.
I've tried and tried to find a copy through our library and Interlibrary Loan (and OCLC), but to no avail. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Mark Davies
Dept. Foreign Languages
Illinois State University
From: etg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (Edmund Grimley-Evans)
Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.politics.ec
Subject: Re: One point against Esperanto
Date: 5 Mar 1995 20:46:43 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK
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About young children. They do not work with rules. Nor with complete memorization. It is (I think) mostly by intuition. I readily believe (from another thread) that whatever the native language, the child will acquire it about equally fast. The conclusion from this is that there is no difference when you teach young children a foreign language whether that is Esperanto, English, Mandarin or whatever. The advantages of Esperanto will only become appararent when teaching to the elder.
I don't know how young you mean by "young", but the experiments demonstrating that Esperanto can be learnt quicker than English, French, German, etc were done with school children, not adults.
Surely there's a difference between learning something as a first (native) language and learning it as a second (foreign) language while still a child. Your argument drifts seamlessly from one to t'other.
Edmundo http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/etg10/From: mloMark@ix.netcom.com (Mark Odegard)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: *tic* as a verb.
Date: 5 Mar 1995 02:07:58 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Xref: venere.inet.it alt.usage.english:11053 sci.lang:4340
Merriam-Webster's 10th Collegiate Dictionary lists only as a noun.It's also a verb.
The words "ticcer" (a homophone of "ticker", one who tics), "ticcy", "ticcier", "ticciest" and "ticcing" are also used. These forms are well attested -- even common -- in the Tourette Syndrome community and in articles on the subject in the learned journals.
Is this anomaly exclusively M-W's?
I have only M-W at hand. What do other dictionaries say?
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: Andre@shappski.demon.co.uk (Andre Shapps)
Subject: Re: Linguistics for Kids
References: <3j3jg9$gh4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> <794269257snz@storcomp.demon.co.uk>
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In article: <794269257snz@storcomp.demon.co.uk> philip@storcomp.demon.co.uk (Phil
Hunt) writes:
> SPOILER - my answers follow
Of course, I'm open to the possibilty that I was completely wrong ...
Andre Shapps
From: aeulenbe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Alex Eulenberg)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Scatology in spanish
Date: 7 Mar 1995 15:20:10 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
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In <3jgrim$1lv$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> Jacques Thu ry <75107.2170@CompuServe.COM> writes:
Jacques Thuery:
Of course, neither "mierda" nor "caca" are of Quechua origin, "guano" is.
Does that mean that "guano" is not used in Spain? How about the rest of Latin America?
Very interesting. Are there any known relations between Quechua and Russian? The Russian word for shit is "govno" -- coincidence? Sound symbolism? Evidence of prehistoric Russo-Quechuan contact?
From: bhelm@cs.uoregon.edu (B. Robert Helm)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Supported by Famous Linguists (tm) (was: ESPERANTO - SPAM SPAM SPAM, SPAM SPAM SPAM)
Date: 11 Mar 1995 21:47:04 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon Computer and Information Sciences Dept.
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Summary: Do, peperonion, S-ro Derzhansky?
Keywords: linguistics esperanto international
In article ,Ivan A Derzhanski wrote:In article <3jt061$icv@blackrabbit.cs.uoregon.edu> bhelm@cs.uoregon.edu (B. Robert Helm) writes:
For the record: Before the Second World War, several prominent linguists supported the idea of a designed international auxiliary language, although none that I know of committed to Esperanto specifically.
Why is this relevant, though? The idea of using a designed international auxiliary language as a solution to the world's communication problems is a political idea, and whether one supports it or not depends on one's political views, which are in no way correlated with one's being or not being a linguist. One might as well ask how many linguists like pineapple and ham on their pizza.
Well said. The question, "Should we promote an international
auxiliary language?" is indeed political. However, questions like "Could such a language be created and kept stable?" and "What are the right features for such a language?" seem to require linguistic expertise, which is presumably why the poster to whom I responded wanted celebrity endorsements for Esperanto. The linguists I listed evidently believed that an international auxiliary language was possible, and thought that more linguistic research was needed to determine the language's features.
As Mu:hlha:usler points out, however, many linguists now refuse to evaluate the "goodness" of languages by _any_ criterion, so no engineering criteria for international languages, much less endorsements of languages for that role, are likely to appear soon.
It's probably just as well; people have learned a lot about languages by treating treating them as objects for purely scientific study. But this "atelic" bias does pose problems for those who plan languages or make language policies; the questions they raise are not being answered.
For instance, in the chapter of _Handbook of Tok Pisin_ that I quoted, Mu:ha:usler proposes a number of guidelines for expanding the Tok Pisin lexicon. His guidelines, he says, are determined in part by the need to keep Tok Pisin easy to learn as a second language. Do his guidelines meet his goal? As far as I can tell, no current linguistic research can answer that question; some might even say that it is not a legitimate question for a linguist to ask.
Rob
From: yura@univ.simbirsk.su (Yury I. Finkel)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.ec,alt.politics.eu,sci.lang,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: Esperanto? The EU? (Very, very long)
Followup-To: alt.politics.ec,alt.politics.eu,sci.lang,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.esperanto
Date: 9 Mar 1995 14:54:02 +0300
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Maelstrom (ccardona@mail2.sas.upenn.edu) wrote:
Yury I. Finkel (yura@univ.simbirsk.su) wrote:
J. BENSON (JBENSN@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
WHO REALLY NEEDS AN ARTIFICIAL LANGUAGE LIKE ESPERANTO?
ALL !!!
All what?? cats? dogs?? Im sure humans are doing fine communicating past foreign barriers with ENGLISH.
I can't, as you see :) I don't know English, sorry. But I know Esperanto!
And I can ask you:
WHO REALLY NEEDS AN INTERNATIONAL LANGUAGE LIKE ENGLISH?
My answer is: NOBODY!
Jurij Finkel,
* yura@univ.simbirsk.su * +7 - 8422 - 32-07-63 *
From: Clouse@ix.netcom.com (Robert/Mary Clouse)
Newsgroups: alt.education.research,k12.chat.junior,k12.chat.senior,k12.chat.teacher,k12.ed.comp.literacy,k12.ed.lang.esp-eng,misc.education.home-school.misc,misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Two Groovey Teachers
Date: 12 Mar 1995 07:51:35 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <3jtnh7$354@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> aokeefe@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (OKEEFE) writes:
KCSOS 8 (kcsos8@cello.gina.calstate.edu) wrote:
In article MichaelWhitacre, whitacre.10@osu.edu writes:
Content area:
Reading and English 6th Grade
Seven Years experience
The kids enjoy reading for the most part. Some kids are jokers but for the most part I have really good students and I'm a great teacher. I have readers at every level. I fluctuate difficulty of text from the different grade levels. Some novels are very difficutl and some are easier. That way each child is exposed to all levells First of all, any teacher who uses the word "Groovey" can't be all that good.
Second, I disagree with your method about reading. If you let a child with a lower reading level read at a lower level, then that child will not be challenged enough to improve. The problem today is (and unfortunately this is true and I'm an 18 year-old) that kids are getting lazier and lazier. That child at the lower reading level is just as capable of reading the books that are more difficult and understanding/enjoying them, but it might take more work on the student's part which he/she might be unwilling to do. I read Les Miserables in 8th grade and with the use of my trusty dictionary, I came to understand it and enjoy it. I've read it three times since then. It does work and will work for you. Students are looking for the "free ride" through school and you are starting them down the road towards reinforcing that belief for some.
Grendel
Memory, prophecy, and fantasy-
The past, the future and the dreaming moment in between-
Are all in one country, Living one immortal Day.
To know that is Wisdom. To use this is the Art.
I'm sorry. But shouldnt you be in the teacher chat?!?
